Just my questions - Page 4

Centurian, this is why whenever I was 'socialising' a puppy I'd take it into as many situations as possible. Its not (just) about getting used to seeing people, it is about tackling different surfaces to walk on, negotiating all types of staircase, walking through underpasses, and many more.

I believe that even if a dog isn't as genetically sound as it might be, early and frequent exposure to these 'environmental factors' Koots and Sunny have mentioned will get you a better dog.  Trouble is many breeders and other people do not trouble themselves with this stuff until later on, if at all. Same with 'habituation' to household and traffic noises and the like.

Na that can't be right Bf said so and that is gospel is it not

Trouble is many breeders and other people do not trouble themselves with this stuff until later on, if at all

trouble is many breeders and other people do not realize or plainly ignore that learned behaviour do not pass to offspring and after such socialization do consider those dogs as worthy to be used in breeding.

I was just reading the owner of the van Teikerhooks interview and that is exactly what he said

Valk, socialization will never fix nerve or environmental issues that are genetic in nature, but, it will expose them for me to see. Thats the reason I socialize, to know, to see if that particular dog/puppy is for me.
I am not a breeder, dont have any interest in becoming one, so, the second part does not apply to me.

Yogi, my point was that you still can't cover up unsoundness, even if you expose the living poop out of a dog yoiu maybe able to cover up some of it and with that "get a better dog", the fact remains that the dog is still unsound. What part about that do you not understand?

Genetics matter! That's the only thing that I made a point off. How the ever living F did you take that and spin it into "You can't keep them locked up for four months?"

I am not worried about the shutdown because I don't need places like petco, tractor supply or home depot (which are all open btw), I have everything that I need for this litter. Anything is novel to them. The shop is novel, I have all the undergrounds that I need from wood, tile to linoleum, I have hanging bridges, metal grate bridges, unstable surfaces etc. I really don't worry about a frickin shutdown to socialize or expose dogs.

No I agree that nervous unsoundness cannot be covered up fully (though handlers in Show rings have been doing quite a good temporary job for decades); a truly genetically shot temperament will always eventually show itself. But a lot of dogs - even with temperaments I'd not choose to breed from - will be able to 'get by' well enough in everyday life, if given a chance. Sometimes they are not given that chance and end up in shelters. Some get adopted by people who will work to 'cure' or manage their difficiencies; but some see the end of their days there, and that is a waste.

BE may be well enough set up for space and equipment so that the Covid19 lockdown is not hampering her efforts much, if at all. But if I was still trying to do this nowadays, I would be stuck for opportunities to do the things I used to do with pups and youngsters in training.

Koots and BE Yes , I am defining the word Socialization to mean EVERYTHING that whatever the dog must cope with in the world it is exposed to in it's " Critical Developmental Periods of it's Life " . The dog is exposed to that which it has to function in for the entirety of it's life. IMOp socialization is not just limitted to people but also includes places and things. People places and things in life.

Now .. dogs are " Context Specific Learners " and very very very poor Generalizers , unlike cats which are great generalizers , hence the term copy cat . It is nearly impossbile druringthe develomentalm periods , to expose a dog to every single thing , in every single possible environment , that it could ever experience in it'es entire life.

Ok ok ok .. I think we all understand genetics and temperament are the underpinnings of a dog's soundness. No debate over that . So ... my question rehtorically is : if a dog balks at one thing in an environment ,just one thing throughout it's life , is one going to deem this dog as being "unsound environmentally " , "temperament deficient" ? Of course , if a dog does not cope with many environmental aspects , yes ! But what about a dog that just has a quirk about one thing out of the many other things about environment ? Is it so out of normal for a dog to come across something that it never never but once experienced and stop and think " what the heck is this " ?. Is not part of dog's behavior to be ' investigative' meaning that it investigates , what it does not know or understand ? .. Do we think that dogs know about everything under the sun ? Again if this uncdrtainty and insecurity occurs for many things in the environemt or for everything , yes we can draw a concusion about the dog's make up being unsound. However , in it's whole life , if we see the dog balk but once ..are we going to call a dog like this ' Unsound " ? Consider a dog that is 'gun shy' , which is a genetic flaw , but at the same time is not sound sensitive in all other apsects of life .. rheotrically I ask : is that dog totally unsound or does it just have this one genetic flaw ? I also rhtorically ask : Do we equate a flaw the same as being totally unsound , that is to say , ' a dog with a flaw is unsound ipso facto '? What say you all ?

Interesting post Centurian. Theoretically, a dog is genetically predetermined to achieve a specific level of x, y, z, not more. The dog’s socialization, environmental exposure, training influence is administered by a subjective, imperfect human...so wouldn't it be difficult in theory to determine whether or not the dog achieves xyz?

@Hundmutter: even without my shop there is so much in our environment that we can use, depending where you live. Adventure Playgrounds, if you have woods close by with metal bridges, you can buy a lot of stuff yourself too. Tarps, Metal Grates and set up little adventure courses. You can take them on rides to places and show them new environments.

I am truly not worried about the social aspect with people. If you have socially stable dogs, they don't have to meet a hundred people in order to be socially stable dogs. People still walk their dogs outside. My dogs never get to interact with other people when I'm out and about. They simply walk by them. That in itself is enough to socialize a dog. We have more people walking their dogs in our neighborhood than every before because people are bored at home and have nothing to do. But for the first time in this place, people leave each others dogs alone and it creates an entirely different environment for the dogs. They are no longer forced to interact and with that we have less reactivity out there. I'm actually walking my dogs in this neighborhood again :D

Like Centurian said, you can't possibly expose puppies to every single thing in the environment and that's where genetics and drive/motivation comes in. You want the dog to be confident and outgoing and then have enough drive and motivation that they won't think twice about this new thing they are encountering and just go head first.