A lot of respect for this handler - Page 4

An other important reason why you don,t see a lot female GSD most can,t take hard corrections
and pressure from oldschool handlers, I heard in the old days females were some harder from charactar to take hard corrections can take more pressure  than today modern bloodlines, I will not judge about that ................. but I know some handlers I wouldn,t sale  a dog  ......

I don’t think this is an issue with GSDs…females in general cannot handle the same kind of pressure males can. I know plenty of malinois that can barely take a flat collar correction. Females who can’t take a hard look without crumbling. High level training requires either a very biddable dog or a dog that can handle the pressure and still show drive. The biddable dogs tend to not have the fight we want, they’re always thinking obedience and many people will say they’re just playing a game and not truly protecting…so most high level trainers prefer the types of dogs that can take enormous amounts of pressure and not be crushed, those dogs are much harder to find. The change isn’t in the dogs, the change is in what is looked for during the routine and people’s understanding of stress in dogs today compared to yesterday. Years ago, showing pressure and stress wasn’t punished, today, you’ll lose a ton of points, or get dismissed. Today, any dog (male or female) showing the way many of the dogs did in the 70s, 80s, and 90s wouldn’t even make it to the higher level competition because there is no way they’d ever beat the dogs who do the work without showing the pressure/stress.

In general, the dogs from today and yesterday can handle the same amounts of pressure…they just look different doing it. We also expect a different picture so we have developed other ways of teaching exercises that don’t involve high amounts of pressure and therefore a “bad picture.” Like I’ve said on other threads before, there are plenty of dogs at lower levels that perform routines the way you see dogs from the 80s and 90s do them…the slinking heeling, the ears pinned back, the looking around in the blind during barking…but those things now lose points for dogs because we have a better understanding of dog body language.

Females do take a much more balanced approach (unless you have the one unicorn) to training than males tend to, and it’s that much harder to find the females that can take that pressure and still work like they’re expected to today. Today’s standard of how the dogs look is just different, I don’t think it has anything to do with how much pressure they can actually take.

Pictures are cosmetic to me.

Why?
At least I like to see a "happy looking dog" instead of a "pressured looking dog" -
training techniques changed, and the understanding for animal needs changed -
not that bad in my book.
In case I am able to do the "IPO routine", and my dog is able to have fun, too, that´s perfect for me.

A wagging tale doesn´t necessarily show the quality of the dog, but for sure the quality of the handler/trainer...

any idea why there are less hard GSD nowadays, could it be breedingchoices, and if so what influenced those choices

That is because life was hard and we were hard and so were our dogs. I remember being a decoy in 60/70s will leave you sore for days dew to the crappy suits we used to wear.

There were very few facilities and much less equipment to train with. We didn't care for esthetics, calm or full grip but strike like a canon ball.

We were Spartans back then and so we liked our dogs to be. Dogs have always been a reflection of the era they lived in.

Those of us whom has been involved with the breed for decades, can probably recall a typical 60s 70s or 90s dog.

So time has influenced those choices. Society changes, demand changes and eventually breeding choices.

For better or worse depends on our personal preferences.

Back to reading mode.

 

Good post Allen1955.

Are we talking about quality of training or quality of dogs; my comment on pictures was not in reference to quality of training.
Good post, Allan!
Our society today more than ever, still needs Army( equate to working dogs of any type) and it still needs special forces ( equate to exceptional working dogs ) that require ability to achieve/tolerate " basic training" and in some cases harsh training to prepare for job.
Of course some will not be capable,( that's understood), but they should be exception not the norm. ( and never bred)

Really? No hard females? Some of the most handler hard dogs I know are actually females.

any idea why there are less hard GSD nowadays, could it be breeding choices, and if so what influenced those choices

duke, if you really need to ask that, you haven't been paying attention to the dog training world outside of schutzhund! The all-positive training crowd wants to ban any sort of pressure being put on dogs, because it's 'cruel'. Some of them would rather have a dog PTS than be corrected, even if it's dragging its owner out into traffic, or challenging other dogs to a fight when it's out on a walk! 

I live about an hour away from Toronto, which recently passed a law banning choke chains and prong collars. As even very reputable organizations like the Canadian National Institute for the Blind* are challenging the new rule, it is under review, and I'm not sure how vigorously it's being enforced.

When I first got into dog training seriously, I laughed at these people. I'm not laughing anymore. The future of our breed and schutzhund are at stake here. Even ALL working dogs are at risk, if these people take over!  Not just police or military dogs, either. Can you imagine training a herding dog, and not being allowed to correct it if it wants to bite the sheep?

(*Blind people are taught to listen for the 'clink' of the guide dog's choke chain. It helps them know what the dog is doing. Not exactly sure of the details, but ALL guide dogs trained by the CNIB wear choke chains or martingale collars.)