Top Showlines with good protection phase - Page 34

To Lonewulf...very well put, great synopsis for the person thinking about working any dog, and I think that is just scraping the surface.  Your club has to have GOOD dedicated helpers, (who deserve a great amount of credit,)  AND a good training director who knows how to fix a problem correctly if one should arise, (which we all know will  happen.)  And...when you go to get your KKL1 Breed Survery, don't forget your AD, your dental notation, your show rating, AND passing hips and elbows.  To have a great show dog with good/great protection work is the complete package and we know they are out there.  As you stated, it takes and amazing amount of work and dedication and I have a lot of respect for people who don't give up.  Even when you have all these great bloodlines mentioned here, it's take a whole lot to get to that VA or high V placement........   

Sounds like a carefully laid trap to divert our attention from the genetics of the dog.  Breeding to the highest placing dogs might ensure the longevity of the line, but the majority of breeders (who don't breed to "the" top placing dog) will need to recognize the potential seen in other dogs that don't place as high, or aren't as accomplished in their careers due to the handler's commitment and training skill fuzzying up the picture.  Not saying it's wrong, just that the difference should be recognized.  Genetics remain the bottom line.

If you want to saturate the showlines with stronger working ability, there should be emphasis for developing a broader based strategy for identifying the dogs that offer the best breeding potential, and how conduct suitable matchmaking, with both short term and long term goals in mind.  Breeders who have taken years or decades to develop what they have are going to naturally have an aversion to the idea of ruthlessly culling everything they've worked for or developed thus far, and instead will need to learn how to integrate what they have with the best that is available to them.

Dreyleret,
Please explain? What is a well laid trap?
We have been discussing genetics from the beginning of this thread and still are.  Just because someone is adding in what the process in finishing a dog in the ring is, as well as work, does not divert attention away from genetics in my eyes. It only firms it up, because a dog with out the proper genetics is just not going to make it in one area or another. It's a very long and scarey process because there is so much that has to fall into place. Some of it is in the hands of the the handler/breeder and some of it is not. Take hips and elbows for example.... we all know that even breeding a superb background for good hips and elbows CAN sometimes throw us a curve.
Also, the dogs/bloodlines we are discussing here have very little to do with breeding to whomever the top dog is.In fact quite the opposite!!  We are discussing who the top WORK PRODUCING, show dogs have been down through history. Some of them have been VA dogs and some of them not.
I'm probably just misunderstanding what you are saying so hence, the statement... Please explain.
Thanks,
Debby

Thank you Debby,

And to Daryleheret.... I have this to say:

I was simply answering Randy Brent's question.... far be it for me to try to entrap you or anyone else with the simple fact of what it takes to finish any dog honestly whether it is for show or for work.... been there and done that and hence what I say is after walking the entire distance.... 

And regards superior training and handler committment fuzzying the genetic picture..... well that is the perpetual statement behind which mediocrity hides.... "Oh! My dog has the genetics to do all of that, I simply cannot train him as well..... OR that dog is good only because So & So trained him"

....let me tell you what I heard a world class working handler say at a seminar I attended..... to someone who could not comprehend that his dog didn't have what was necessary....

"Dude! Only eagles fly like eagles..... all the training is only to make an eagle fly faster or strike harder..... but if you have a turkey then you can give it all the training you want and at the end of the day all you'll have is a lot of gobble-gobble and a lot of flapping around..... Your dog bites like a bird and all the training is only going to make it peck that sleeve to death!!!"

No, no. Please don't take it that way, or as any form of criticism whatsoever.  The expression was meant only to aid my explanation that our perceptions are easily tricked in regards to what's truly pertinent to breeding success for working ability, on both the overall level of the showline population, and in individual breeding pursuits.  Don't fall into the trap of breeding for points, to the most "accomplished" dogs, etc.

No offense taken Darylehret..... your point is valid and I understand what you mean now that you clarify it.....

But here is the conundrum: All the analysis of genetics is based on some assessment done by someone about the superior capabilities of an individual dog versus other candidates....

No dog is born into this world automatically knowing schutzhund.... no dog wakes up in the morning and says Today I am going to be a VA or today I am going to be SchH3 champ!..... These are assessments applied to the dog by a human judging agency based on the dog's ability to serve the direction of its master or based upon the dog anatomical characteristics.....

These assessments are based on an arbitrary set of values that we collectively have stated are desirable attributes and that these assessment categories (VA/V/SG & SchH3/chH2/SchH1 etc etc) are surrogate markers of these desirable attributes in this animal.....

If I understand you correctly... you are saying that the diligent breeder will not rely only upon these external assessments but also upon his own direct conclusions after he/she has been able to directly observe the animal.....

I will definitely agree that this is a very desirable attribute to have in a breeder but at the same time it is also an unfortunate rarity just like the scarcity of true working capability in showlines....

Take for instance the Univ Sieger trials being held today on the 2 sides of this country.... it is indeed very laudable that those who entered did so and it is wonderful to see them step forward to show the watching public what to look for in a shepherd capable of working by presenting real examples and not paper claims.....

BUT does it not strike anyone as depressing that in this country whre there are at least 200-300 SchH3 titled Sieger show capable Showline male and female GSD's only 5 dogs were judged by their handlers as capable of entering a SchH3 trial and a conformation show that is at best of a Regional show level??? ..... And of these 5 (because 1 dog was pulled) only 3 dogs are showline GSD's ???......

the criteria for entry in this event were vastly easier than for the USA UNIVERSAL SIEGER EVENT which required a Sieger show participation, A 270 score to be earned in the same year at a SchH3 trial, a participation at a Regional Championship and then competing at the USA GSD NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS!

 If this is the state of the breed pool.... then all of Randy's analysis is meaningless.... just a feel good set of statements that serve only to drive the unsuspecting and ignorant reader of these posts to either buy more puppies from the purveyors of such genetics or to purchase more stud services from the champions of these so called lines......

.... which is why I stick to my guns and insist.... like Daryehret.... look for concrete examples of living dogs that have shown proven working ability.... go see them in action and then make your breeding decisions....

genetics ladies and gentlemen is where  you came from..... the working field is where you are today.... you don't drive looking in the rear view mirror... why would you breed in that way?

In this thread there is a lot to anticipate and think of, I only wish I don't loose track.

Ibrahim 

I would like to bring peoples attention to one dog that is today competing at the WDA-Univ. Sieger trials....

Zambo vom Riedschlurgi

This is a dog that is VA in structure and can actually work .... it is indeed very puzzling to me that no one on this thread wanted to talk about him.... One would think that everyone would be falling over themselves to study the genetics of this dog....

This is why I am very sceptical about the agenda of the internet genetics analysts who would have evryone beleive that they have the mantra to the whole working ability issue solved

I think Zambo is a SUPER nice dog and he has produced well.
I advised my friend to breed to him some months ago and he has had a really nice litter.
Erin has done a SUPER job training with Zambo...his career is just begining!

* As a side note, I have heard that Tuareg v. Bad Boll is now in the U.S. in Miami!