I incorrectly traced the male sire line of my dog's parents and both go back to "line 4" of Utz vom haus Schutting.

Yes Apple, you are correct about DDR dogs. The reputation they got was in my opinion undeserved. Some were very strong, many not. As a helper, back in the 1990s I worked a few DDR dogs and a few so called Czech border guard dogs. One was very dangerous, the others were average, reasonable drives and personality. I have worked Bose Nachbarschaft and Karthago dogs from famous sires sold to Americans. None of them were like their famous fathers.

As I wrote before, the personality of the parents is no guarantee as to the litter.

There might have been a misunderstanding in what i said. Current ddrs are only but in name hence why i referred to them as showlines though they may have pure bloodlines after several of breeding without a standard it has led to a smaller genetic pool, loss of working qualities, temperament and conformation they were known for. From the responses that i received in this thread i was right to conclude the ddrs are a gimmick. On the subject of the old ddrs it is commonly known that only a handful was of a special quality the rest were average or poor or in some cases out right dangerous.

While not the focus of this thread, I am more interested in GSDCats comments about the different lines of the breed. I assume he/she subscribed to the notion that there are six major bloodlines of the breed based on sire bloodlines which include as numbered and with traits that represent homogeneity such a line 1 with founding sire being Hector v Schwanem, line 2 having founding sire of Hettel v Uckermark, line 3 with founding sire of Klodo v Boxberg, line 4 with founding sire being Utz v Haus Schutting, line 5 with founding sire of Rolf v Osnabrucker Land, and line 6 with founder of Cir Vrtousky doliny. In this schema, each line theoretically has accumulated genetic homogeneity/prepotency and based on that propensity are more likely to produce dogs with physical and mental temperament traits that have an increased likelihood of occurring if the sire and dam of a breeding can be traced back to the founding sire for the line in both the sire and dam who are bred. This is based on the notion that each line produces certain physical and temperament traits that have accumulated due to the prepotency of the bloodline of each sire line. The traits of the six sire lines have been described by people utilizing the male sire lines as a breeding approach and are available. This approach was used by Jinopo which was an offshoot of early DDR dogs and the zPS border patrol dogs and refined by the recently deceased Jiri Novotny who was a breed warden early in the zPS program and who breed thousands of GSDs applying this breeding approach. You can’t dispute the massive numbers of dogs bred based on this philosophy, but one can question the extent of its validity. There are no other breeders I am aware of who have used a specific breeding approach for so many years producing so many dogs, so the reliability of the philosophy offers validity. The other sign of the coin is was the approach tailored to provide GSDs that were breed primarily for commercial use/profit rather than a more focused utilitarian type of dog with a much smaller market and profit margin.

It seems a lot more people are interested in breeding dogs with specific characteristics, regardless of line or GSD type, to obtain puppies with specific characteristics/for specific uses, than linebreeding for specific characteristics, uses, or concentrating a line's genes/characteristics.

Both have their place and value.

There have been some discussions on PDB reference the Czech lines, but I can't seem to find them. Prager, whom I haven't seen here in awhile, probably had the most detailed posts reference Czech lines.  The info's on his website, as well.

Because of Prager, that is why I mentioned the matter of marketing and profit incentive.

actually, yes, the czech dogs all the rage are originally DDR. the breeders that started the Pr Straze Police and border dogs ;looked to the DDR dogs to get their programs running and a good many west working line dogs go back to DDr dogs so how can anyone say they were over rated. I have utilized the DDR dogs in my breeding, I know from experience that they bring great conformation and great temperaments with them. Of the three of my dogs that have gone on to be certified police k9, all had DDR in them.
and as someone else already pointed out, just because the wall came down don t make the dogs being bred today of the old DDR lines any less a DDR dog then would make an ASL being bred in Germany a German working or show line,I have had more then a couple full DDR dogs, I found them to be naturally protective, a calmer overall demeanor with an eagerness to please. They always seem to be thinkers too, always wanting to stay one step ahead no matter what you were doing with them.
And time has changed what every line is bred for today, there are no borders to patrol and guard (although there really should be) just because they are not engaged in that kind of work does not mean the ability to do so is not there. And that ability should be there in whatever line of dogs someone breeds.
Years ago , I was told you couldn t mix the lines, you could not get nothi,ng consistent, So untrue. With each line having a little something to bring with them, they all add up to a dog that the breed was originally bred for, a dog capable of doing whatever task was put before it to do, good conformation, great health and temperaments. A dog that can live with its people, and protect them wi..th no extra effort put forth to do so.
The German shepherd was not bred to be kennel dogs, mass produced with the hopes of high prizes and titles. Any German Shepherd bred and raised in kennel situations, not side by side with their people lose some of the spirit of the breed. I think far too many people look to what others say about the breed instead of looking to the dog itself and allowing it to conform to the standard.
I get so tired of reading , how can i stop my German Shepherd from doing this, or how can i get them to do that? i tell them to get another breed of dog. And for the DDR dogs, thank goodness there are still quite a few breeders that breed them.

by kitkat3478 on 15 October 2021 - 04:10

actually, yes, the czech dogs all the rage are originally DDR. the breeders that started the Pr Straze Police and border dogs ;looked to the DDR dogs to get their programs running and a good many west working line dogs go back to DDr dogs so how can anyone say they were over rated. I have utilized the DDR dogs in my breeding, I know from experience that they bring great conformation and great temperaments with them. Of the three of my dogs that have gone on to be certified police k9, all had DDR in them.
and as someone else already pointed out, just because the wall came down don t make the dogs being bred today of the old DDR lines any less a DDR dog then would make an ASL being bred in Germany a German working or show line,I have had more then a couple full DDR dogs, I found them to be naturally protective, a calmer overall demeanor with an eagerness to please. They always seem to be thinkers too, always wanting to stay one step ahead no matter what you were doing with them.
And time has changed what every line is bred for today, there are no borders to patrol and guard (although there really should be) just because they are not engaged in that kind of work does not mean the ability to do so is not there. And that ability should be there in whatever line of dogs someone breeds.
Years ago , I was told you couldn t mix the lines, you could not get nothi,ng consistent, So untrue. With each line having a little something to bring with them, they all add up to a dog that the breed was originally bred for, a dog capable of doing whatever task was put before it to do, good conformation, great health and temperaments. A dog that can live with its people, and protect them wi..th no extra effort put forth to do so.
The German shepherd was not bred to be kennel dogs, mass produced with the hopes of high prizes and titles. Any German Shepherd bred and raised in kennel situations, not side by side with their people lose some of the spirit of the breed. I think far too many people look to what others say about the breed instead of looking to the dog itself and allowing it to conform to the standard.
I get so tired of reading , how can i stop my German Shepherd from doing this, or how can i get them to do that? i tell them to get another breed of dog. And for the DDR dogs, thank goodness there are still quite a few breeders that breed them.

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                This

 

Here are a few current or recent DDR dogs that I think worthy in comparison to DDR Dogs from 30 years ago

 Iwan vom Poppitz (pedigreedatabase.com)
 Gerry von Weltwitz (pedigreedatabase.com)
Vilko von der Feuersaule (pedigreedatabase.com)
Pepe von Weltwitz (pedigreedatabase.com)
Jamiro von Weltwitz (pedigreedatabase.com)
El Diablo vom Haus Fasold (pedigreedatabase.com)
Blackthorn's Vodka (pedigreedatabase.com)
Wizard von Schraderhaus (pedigreedatabase.com)
Gaby von der Angelika (pedigreedatabase.com)
Bashan von Picasso (pedigreedatabase.com)
Barbel von Picasso (pedigreedatabase.com)
Resi von Weltwitz (pedigreedatabase.com)

Just to name a few

I'd add Brav vom Wunderhaus to that list, based on my litters out of him. Also, the pups out of Freki vom Eintze are turning out to be very worky from 3 different males (she has 5 pups working in schutzhund;1 SAR certified from the first litter, 3 schutzhund homes from 2nd litter, and detection work and schutzhund from the 3rd litter -- 2nd litter just turned 12 months).

Christine