What non GSD problems can mask as DM? - Page 3

Sunsilver, Jenni is referencing CAUDA EQUINA -
see previous page of this thred (CE).

Mad cow and other neurological maladies have been around since man started feeding 4D ( dead, diseased, dying or down ) animal meat to ourselves and our dogs. A cow that can still walk even though not well can still be slaughtered and goes to the ground beef in your Wendy's and those too sick or unable to walk go to mystery meat and beef meal in your dog food or goes back into animal food for livestock where it can infect another generation. Personally I can remember cows with what I would now recognize as "mad cow" like symptoms 50 years ago in our family dairy herd of 300-400 animals. The disease was not "named" at that time so the affected animals were usually destroyed ( ie died or were killed ) and went back into dog or other animal food. The idea that "mad cow" does not exist in US animal populations both wild and domestic is laughable. Most animals die or are killed before they display some of these food related neurological maladies.

Aren't we getting away from those diseases whose symptoms
"can mask as DM" ?                    ~Hundmutter

I would agree with you, Hund. Apparently, every bizarre, uncommon malady known to man is up for grabs. Bubba has got this one warping into a mighty heady tailspin.

 

Jenni,

Returning to the point above, you had mentioned the very "stoic"-ness of your dogs to never show pain. I know your dog has since been determined to have CE, BUT while DM was being considered by a vet, according to you, you implied because the dog was masking pain so well, such a disqualifying symptom was partly the cause and became the "mask" worn by CE, as DM. I merely wanted to point out, that while "stoic" could be thought of as being silent and still in pain, it might be good to know that "biting at the thigh" can also be a tell tale sign of feeling discomfort for a dog.

Thanks Bee : )

Not knocking your wider concerns Bubba, I generally agree
with you but the thred answers were starting to spiral into
wobbler syndrome and fungi and who all knows what else,
and I'd guess the OP would not find that helpful with the
problem he posted.

Anyone who has been around CDRM in Shepherds will tell
you that it is CLASSIC that there is no pain. Sure, animals
can be very stoic; but it has always been almost THE thing
that tells us we have a DM (ie nerve damage) case. CE however
- probably due to its primarily arthritic nature, its recorded that there
usually IS some pain, you just have to know the dog well to pick it
up sometimes when they are masking it.

Had a dog with Cauda Equina, besides the no response from toe flipping, he had pain when jumping. Would jump into the truck, go in his crate and cry holding up a rear leg, in a few minutes it would subside. Off to training, and it started happening doing jumps. I used to think he was hitting his toes, not the case. Had him examined for swimming therapy, and when the vet did the range of motion test, had to stop it because he was in so much pain. When he was eleven I had him xrayed for unrelated exam, terrible spondylosis! If you grabbed the scruff of his neck, he would cry..I used to say, "my dog has a really massive neck," NOT, poor guy had spondylosis which made him very stiff. He made it to almost eleven, swimming helped, accupuncture helped, keeping his weight low and walking. This was about six years ago, no one ever said DM...

http://www.gcnm.org/stenosis.html

lumbosacral stenosis is common in Greyhounds and DM is often misdiagnosed for this condition as most vets don't have a clue.  Excerpt ... Signs are rear end pain, lameness, weakness, "shuffling", knuckling over, foot dragging, and muscle wasting. Both urinary and fecal incontinence are possible and carry a worse prognosis. Greyhounds may even lose their appetite from the pain and "waste away".

excerpt ..The difficulty in diagnosing LS is twofold. Many veterinarians simply do not recognize the signs. LS looks neurologic, and technically, it is. But a rare and obscure neurological disease, it is not. Beware a diagnosis of "hip dysplasia" in a greyhound - greyhound hips are by and large excellent. The second problem is that unless your greyhound is "lucky" enough to have visible arthritis on lumbosacral x-rays, the only techniques to confirm LS are pretty high tech - CT, MRI, discography, etc.

 

The OP asked what could present with symptoms like DM and is in fact not DM. The answer is a lot of things and most vets don't have a clue. Vets and doctors made bad calls on Lyme for hundreds of years until they "discovered" Lyme in 1981 .. a disease that has been around in humans for at least 5000 years. DM is impossible to diagnose with a living dog so save the "just trust your vet" advice for the feeble minded and let the owner get on with trying to save her dog. Even a positive genetic test for DM does not prove causation and yes the BRCA example for breast cancer is appropriate for comparison for DM in dogs because DM in dogs is based on correlation with a gene not proof of causation. The BRCA mutation is 100 times better understood in humans than DM in dogs ( and in greyhounds in particular ) yet the BRCA mutation does not cause breast or ovarian cancer .. BRCA mutations cause a decrease in the presence of cancer suppression compounds in the body. There are plenty of people with the BRCA mutation that do not get breast or ovarian cancer and there are plenty of dogs with the single poorly understood DM related mutation that do not present with DM. Veterinarians have killed as many dogs for me as they have saved. Veterinarians are business owners who sell a service .. I trust them as much as my mechanic or my electrician.

Rear leg problems in Greyhounds discussed below including arthritis or spondylosis deformans which is common in older greyhounds and causes neurologic symptoms similar to DM or other problems associated with rear leg loss of control.

http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/274278-spinal-problems-in-greyhounds/

https://greytarticles.wordpress.com/medical-first-aid/muscularskeletal/oh-my-aching-back-%E2%80%A6/

I don't think you got my point, Beetree. Or I don't get yours. One of the two, lol. I was saying that instead of the vet putting 2+2 together and seeing it was CE, they instead diagnosed him with 2 ailments- DM to cover the occasional toe drag and muscle wasting, and food allergies to cover the occasional nibbling on his thighs. I looked at the whole thing as one problem and self-diagnosed, then got him an MRI to confirm. I never thought it could be DM and never thought he lacked any feeling. I noticed his ladder work was getting harder for him as far as where to put back feet; he went from incredibly confident on any obstacle to placing rear feet multiple times to be sure he had them planted firmly. Vet should have realized that if he was biting his legs from 'food allergies' like they thought, that he had feeling and therefore their DM diagnosis was even more far-fetched than previously thought. If you're saying the vet should have known that biting at thighs indicates feeling, hell yes. I agree.

Yes, Jenni, apparently we are playing ring-around-the-rosie with this! 

If you're saying the vet should have known that biting at thighs indicates feeling, hell yes. I agree.

This is exactly what is my meaning. I just found it very hard to believe knowing the high standards you keep to, that you would have gone to a specialist that wouldn't have realized this very basic premise. 

 

And now for the head-banger from Bubba: Please NOTE: PAIN is mentioned in the Excerpt you have posted, in the first clause, in the green color, above! The fact you can't find a decent vet to work with you is no reason to discredit the many other fine vets who do care and do know what they are all about. 

Hello All,
I am the greyhound owner this post is originally about. It is not that the vet insists he has DM it is one of the possibilities, I am willing to get the genetic testing done to rule it out, I am just waiting for his next visit for the blood pull. The problem is his physical symptoms do not seem to match his imaging here is the history so far…
He is an 11yr old male
presented about a year ago with what was diagnosed as a groin muscle pull, had a hesitance to jump.
With rest, ice, and cold laser therapy this seemed to improve and we slowly started exercising again.
At the beginning of December he went to jump into my truck and missed, may have hit his back I caught him, after I noticed he was dipping his hind end when standing for long periods and seemed sore, the vet said possible re-injury and I put him on rest again.
After about a month he did not seem to improve I took him to his normal vet and he prescribed anti inflammatory and said if he did not improve in two weeks to take him to the specialist.
That night (a Friday) he was whining and pacing stuck at the top of the stairs, I had to bribe him down and he slipped toward the end, I did my best to support him.
I immediately made an appointment for the specialist. His findings on exam were…
Pain in back, especially over sacrum
failed toe test on both hind, reduced patella reflex.
I proceeded with MRI and Spinal tap
MRI seems mostly normal only a small chip of note between sacrum and where his tail begins on right side
Spinal seems normal as well, slightly (1point) high protein level could be due to contamination or could be something
Put him on Pred. 20mg 2x's daily
He went nuts with side effects especially his stomach he was cramping so bad I couldn't tell if it was even helping, but I do not think he improved.
At his recheck (where I met the other poster) they found him to be basically the same although his left hind now corrects when they flip his toe for neuro exam.
I am in the process of tapering him off the pred. I have his side effects under control, and am to let the vet know if he declines once he is completely off the pred.
At this point the vet and I are both unsure of what is going on. Yes it could be DM, but the pain and improvement of function in the left hind don't seem to fit with DM. In addition I feel the decline was much to quick for DM correct me if I'm wrong, one day he is doing a full set of stairs, even if i notice he is a little sore; by the end of day he cannot come down the stairs without falling.
The vet originally thought that the chip shown near the sacrum on the MRI was not big enough to cause the problem but is now unsure due to the fact that his right side seems to be worse than his left.

Any and all advice is appreciated… I just want to help him if I can.
I found the post about CE very interesting including the comments about jumping. What did you see on the MRI that led to this diagnosis?
Thanks for all the input sorry post was so long just wanted to be thorough

Also I am a bit confused are LS and CE the same?