NASS Helpers - Page 3

Yeah just gotta be careful what you drink.  What appears as knowledge isn't always.  Especially the deep dark secret stuff.

Black BING CHERRY !!!

I'm not sure what that is but it sounds good!  :) Probably won't make me smarter though! lol

Matt,

As a helper, could you help a dog that was a little weak do better?  Could a helper maybe work a dog a little more than it's capable of?

Dog1

As a helper, depending on the dog you can teach a weak dog on how to handle the stress better.  It's just how far you can help them that's the question. 

It is also possible to push a dog too hard or ask it to do more than it's capable of.  Part of the training should be to increase these thresh holds as high as possible but you have to carefully in increments.

Why do you ask?

bzcz,

Just wanting to know your thoughts on the helpers input to the dog. Is it fair to say by the time a helper has attained the national level, they have progressed far enough in their experience to pretty much size up the dogs abilities as they work the dog from the start. In other words as a dog comes to the helper, the helper begins to read the dog immediately and as the dog progresses towards the helper, the helper makes assessments or naturally reacts to what they see happening before them. As the dog presents itself the helper becomes an integral part of the dogs experience. Experienced helpers can react to the dogs input and alter ther style, whatever you want to call it to work the dog to it's limits as you addressed previously. The experienced helper can tell immediately what the dog is and can take for the most part. The experienced helper has the ability to work the dog enough to where it's enough of a challenge but not so much that it exceeds the abilities of the dog. I think that's what you were refering to if I'm understanding your post. The point I'm trying to express is by the time the helpers that work these National event are qualified to work the event they have a pretty good skill set to size up what's going on and react. Not every club level helper that can work a trial has the experience to do a National event. It takes a pretty good set of skills that are developed over time. Would you generally agree with the concept here?

DOG1,

Sounds to me like there is something specific your referencing but regardless I will try and answer your questions as I understand them below.

Just wanting to know your thoughts on the helpers input to the dog. Is it fair to say by the time a helper has attained the national level, they have progressed far enough in their experience to pretty much size up the dogs abilities as they work the dog from the start.

I don't agree with this statement.  Trial helpers have experience working dogs at a trial level.  That doesn't mean that they have the skills or experience to "read" a dog.  They are not tested or taught on their ability to read a dog.  Some of them can, some cannot, but the certification process completely avoids the reading of the dog.  The start for a trial helper is the bark and hold,  IF you can read a dog there are some things told to you here, but not everything.

In other words as a dog comes to the helper, the helper begins to read the dog immediately and as the dog progresses towards the helper, the helper makes assessments or naturally reacts to what they see happening before them.

This used to be more true in trials.  Today's standard though is that all dogs are worked the same.  Same number of steps in the drives, stick hits on step 3 and 6 (just an example) end the drive on step 10....  They want all the dogs worked the same (This is in regards to NATIONAL TRIALS that I am speaking about, club level is somewhat different).  So no the helper can't really react to the dog.   It used to be that the helpers had lattitude during the helperwork.  i.e.  I'm driving a dog, and after the stick hits, I feel the dog's grip weaken.  Old days, I could keep driving him and display that for the judge to see and I would drive until the dog decided to either hang on or fall off.  Nowadays, I have to stop when I'm told or where the marks are on the field so that it is fair to the dog.

As the dog presents itself the helper becomes an integral part of the dogs experience. Experienced helpers can react to the dogs input and alter ther style, whatever you want to call it to work the dog to it's limits as you addressed previously.

Trial helpers don't alter their style during a trial, and most of them (not all), don't alter it even in training.  They want their reactions to be pure muscle memory.  There is a big difference in a training helper and a trial helper.  WHat you are describing above is what a good training helper should be able to do.

The experienced helper can tell immediately what the dog is and can take for the most part. The experienced helper has the ability to work the dog enough to where it's enough of a challenge but not so much that it exceeds the abilities of the dog.

Again, a good training helper can do this.  Unfortunately as I travel around to different clubs and watch, the skill of training helpers to read dogs is pretty abysmal.  Most training helpers are now under the impression that they should work dogs like a trial helper and there really isn't much reading of dogs and teaching of concepts.  It's an unfortunates side effect of the helper colleges and seminars for trial helpers.  Its a testament to how well the breeding of the dogs is doing because the teaching of the fundamentals of bite work are not being addressed anymore, but that's another topic.

I think that's what you were refering to if I'm understanding your post. The point I'm trying to express is by the time the helpers that work these National event are qualified to work the event they have a pretty good skill set to size up what's going on and react. Not every club level helper that can work a trial has the experience to do a National event. It takes a pretty good set of skills that are developed over time. Would you generally agree with the concept here?

I would clarify that National Level helpers have a high level of experience of working trial dogs.  Their reactions are all geared to trial scenarios, i.e. dogs that go after the judge for one example.  The Trial helper will be over there protecting him before he realizes he's moving.  In the trial, if the dog leaves the blind in a hold and bark, the trial helper won't even blink where as a training helper would have to catch himself because everything in him is geared towards getting the dog back in the blind.  Just two examples that come to mind.  It's not always experience that dictates if you can work a National event or get a National level certification.  There is an athleticism to it that is required.  I was a receiver at Kansas State University in my youth.  Another National Level helper played Arena League Football, others have Martial Arts backgrounds, some have marathon and track and field experience.  It is this athleticism that has to be cultivated somewhere that makes a National Level Helper.  Some of the National Level Helpers, cultivated it working dogs.  It can be done this way also, but it has to be done somewhere.  Some club level helpers have years of experience and are very safe and solid helpers, but they don't have the athleticism that will let them work 24 dogs in a day for three days in a row, or the ability to catch 15 rocket dogs in a day.  It is a HUGE mistake to believe that all club level helpers do not have experience.  Some of them are the best training helpers out there. 

I hope this answers your questions.  If not, let me know and I'll try again.