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by FHTracker on 10 August 2010 - 21:08
Ruger,
I say the following not to start a fight or in any way be condesending. You seem to genuinely want to know what you're doing so in that vein I'm going to stand up and give *you* some tough love so to speak.
I think that at this point if anyone is being unfair to Prince, it's you. I'm not saying you're doing this deliberately but from reading your posts over the past few months, you appear to be jumping back and forth on what exactly you want to do with your dog and what you want from him in return.
You talk about AKC trainers/cookie training and animal behaviorist going in one direction with Prince and then Schutzhund trainers introducing something else. You change his crate position on him and that kicks off a whole new set of issues. It sounds like a lot of Prince's aggression is coming down the leash from you. This has all got to be very confusing for him because it sounds like he wants to please you but he has no clear idea what it is you're asking of him.
I think it's not so much Prince who needs training but you, my dear.
A couple people have mentioned that you need to go to Schutzhund training without your dog and I really think you should consider this. You posted about who you unwittingly made a 'flirt pole' and Prince's reaction to it and you had no idea what was going on with that, just that your dog responded. All well and good but if you'd spent some time around a Schutzhund club, talked to people about what goes into brining along a Schutzhund puppy, that flirt pole would have been Schutzhund puppy 101 to you then.
You talk about fainting dead away at your dog being strung up, fair enough it's hard to watch but what are you going to do the first time he is hit with the stick? What if the helper stings his feet with the whip? What if he hits the hurdle on the way out and you still have to 'hup' him back across?
Schutzhund training is not easy on a dog, it is mentally and physically demanding. I'm not saying this is a free pass for it to be abusive, never, never, never should it be unfair but there are elements that demand from the dog and you need to see and understand those to make a decision if Schutzhund is for you and Prince or not.
I think *you* need to understand a little more about the goals of the different training styles (AKC/Schutzhund/Behaviorist) and then commit to what you want for yourself and your dog and stick with that, rather than keep hopping about with no road map as to what it is you want from your dog.
I say the following not to start a fight or in any way be condesending. You seem to genuinely want to know what you're doing so in that vein I'm going to stand up and give *you* some tough love so to speak.
I think that at this point if anyone is being unfair to Prince, it's you. I'm not saying you're doing this deliberately but from reading your posts over the past few months, you appear to be jumping back and forth on what exactly you want to do with your dog and what you want from him in return.
You talk about AKC trainers/cookie training and animal behaviorist going in one direction with Prince and then Schutzhund trainers introducing something else. You change his crate position on him and that kicks off a whole new set of issues. It sounds like a lot of Prince's aggression is coming down the leash from you. This has all got to be very confusing for him because it sounds like he wants to please you but he has no clear idea what it is you're asking of him.
I think it's not so much Prince who needs training but you, my dear.
A couple people have mentioned that you need to go to Schutzhund training without your dog and I really think you should consider this. You posted about who you unwittingly made a 'flirt pole' and Prince's reaction to it and you had no idea what was going on with that, just that your dog responded. All well and good but if you'd spent some time around a Schutzhund club, talked to people about what goes into brining along a Schutzhund puppy, that flirt pole would have been Schutzhund puppy 101 to you then.
You talk about fainting dead away at your dog being strung up, fair enough it's hard to watch but what are you going to do the first time he is hit with the stick? What if the helper stings his feet with the whip? What if he hits the hurdle on the way out and you still have to 'hup' him back across?
Schutzhund training is not easy on a dog, it is mentally and physically demanding. I'm not saying this is a free pass for it to be abusive, never, never, never should it be unfair but there are elements that demand from the dog and you need to see and understand those to make a decision if Schutzhund is for you and Prince or not.
I think *you* need to understand a little more about the goals of the different training styles (AKC/Schutzhund/Behaviorist) and then commit to what you want for yourself and your dog and stick with that, rather than keep hopping about with no road map as to what it is you want from your dog.
by LAVK-9 on 10 August 2010 - 21:08
Good luck Ruger I am sure you will do fine. Prince will love you no matter what and will respect you more if the corrections come from you.You don't have to kill him for things just make a fair and firm correction and don't forget to praise for the possitive behavior. Be calm, confident and get your point across. No hanging,hitting or yelling. (I'm sure you wouldn't do that anyway) I think a muzzle will help you be confident but you need to get him use to that in a comfortable place like your home not a place he is going to be stressed in like a training class. One step at a time you will accomplish the behavior you desire from Prince.
by LAVK-9 on 10 August 2010 - 21:08
Sorry double posted
by HBFanatic on 10 August 2010 - 21:08
I just read FHTracker's response and think it was well written and on the spot.
Having said that, no dog of mine should have any issues on being handed over to another person by me. Even it it is a bit stressful to them, they need to deal with it. Now I will say, none of my guys are PPD's. With a sure enough PPD, this may be different.
What about the temperament test portion of the BH? In our case the judge had us tie up the dogs outside a bathroom and walk out of sight. He then proceeded to "push" on the dogs, more or less as he felt fit. Stranger to the dogs. I would not expect my dog to love it, but unless there is aggression on the part of the "stranger", I don't feel that the dog should be stressed out terribly either or take to being aggressive without clear provocation?
Having said that, no dog of mine should have any issues on being handed over to another person by me. Even it it is a bit stressful to them, they need to deal with it. Now I will say, none of my guys are PPD's. With a sure enough PPD, this may be different.
What about the temperament test portion of the BH? In our case the judge had us tie up the dogs outside a bathroom and walk out of sight. He then proceeded to "push" on the dogs, more or less as he felt fit. Stranger to the dogs. I would not expect my dog to love it, but unless there is aggression on the part of the "stranger", I don't feel that the dog should be stressed out terribly either or take to being aggressive without clear provocation?
by zdog on 10 August 2010 - 22:08
man, you guys are so quick to judge around here. Taking the leash and seeing how a dog reacts isn't really a big deal. There are different reasons a dog can act aggressively towards strangers. and being able to be led by a stranger is new and novel thing to most dogs and most won't act aggressively at that point, then to allow another to come up and crowd the space just gives the trainer an idea of what is causing the aggression, or at least some insight on where to go next when YOU are handling the dog
WTF, find another trainer, deserves to be bit, etc???? sure thing. This was session one and the trainer needs to size up the dog, and often times that means to see for yourself what is happening since those proficient in reading dogs most likely aren't there for help in the first place. Now if this was session 10 and you're still not handling your dog I'd have some questions, but not to see just run a simple test on a dog.
It's not like they handed stranger aggressive dog on to some schmoe off the street and said here, go walk him thru that group of people and see if anyone gets bit. It was the trainer, i'd guess it was pretty safe.
WTF, find another trainer, deserves to be bit, etc???? sure thing. This was session one and the trainer needs to size up the dog, and often times that means to see for yourself what is happening since those proficient in reading dogs most likely aren't there for help in the first place. Now if this was session 10 and you're still not handling your dog I'd have some questions, but not to see just run a simple test on a dog.
It's not like they handed stranger aggressive dog on to some schmoe off the street and said here, go walk him thru that group of people and see if anyone gets bit. It was the trainer, i'd guess it was pretty safe.
by Red Sable on 10 August 2010 - 22:08
Personally I don't want my dog listening to anyone but me. I totally agree with Lav, your dog should get his cues from you, and listen to you and only you IMO. It is your job to be in control of him.
JMO. :)
JMO. :)
by Ninja181 on 10 August 2010 - 22:08
I agree with Tracker also.
Also I think your dog may see himself as higher in the pack than you.
Therefore he is making his own decisions on how to handle approaching strangers. He should be keying on you. If he sees you as higher in the pack then maybe when someone comes close you are tightening the lease or sending some type of signal that is setting him off. I am thinking this way because his behavior is different when a stranger has the leash.
If he does see himself as higher in the pact than you then maybe this also is causing your crate problems.
Just my $.02
Good luck with your Dog
Also I think your dog may see himself as higher in the pack than you.
Therefore he is making his own decisions on how to handle approaching strangers. He should be keying on you. If he sees you as higher in the pack then maybe when someone comes close you are tightening the lease or sending some type of signal that is setting him off. I am thinking this way because his behavior is different when a stranger has the leash.
If he does see himself as higher in the pact than you then maybe this also is causing your crate problems.
Just my $.02
Good luck with your Dog
by raymond on 10 August 2010 - 23:08
OMG the dumb sergeant has shocked me all to hell! If the dog considers itself in a higer rank of authority than you he wil attempt to dominate the circumstances or events! I am trying to solve this issue now with my girl! And to a great deal of success! as well as I have to be conscience of my actions when on and off leash in how I desire her to act! Impressive ninja very impresive! One point for you!
by Ruger1 on 10 August 2010 - 23:08
FHTtacker...I appreciate your post and no offense is taken...I like when people speak their mind...You have valid points that deserve my consideration...Thank you....
zdog....I think the trainer had your thoughts in mind......That would be my best guess...Thanks for the post....
zdog....I think the trainer had your thoughts in mind......That would be my best guess...Thanks for the post....
by Doberdoodle on 10 August 2010 - 23:08
What area of the country are you located in? I just get the feeling maybe you need a different trainer still, not sure.
Anyway, I do not like what I read. I totally agree with muzzling him and having her walk him around but...
- As a trainer, there is no reason to put pressure on a dog when you haven't introduced yourself properly and the dog does not know you, unless you are the bullying type but then the dog will never be himself around you-- when a trainer is very hard from the get-go, the trainer never sees the dogs true colors like the owners do, they only see the dog on his inhibited behavior. And this is where you get trainers thinking "This dog is perfect for me, the owners are clueless." I find a better approach is to be very fair, to spend enough time to introduce myself to the dog and never be "dominating"
- Theres no need to "test" because you're only making the issues worse- if someone says their dog does something, I take their word for it, I don't need to "see" it.
- You should not have taken the muzzle off right afterwards because now he's going to associate being muzzled with unpleasant things, you have to have him wear the muzzle at home, for like an hour every day, just relazing, so he views it as a regular piece of equipment, I put cheese on the inside and have them eat it
- It may be good for the dog to work with a trainer, if it was a trainer I really trusted I would do a board and train with this pup, this type of dog can greatly benefit from intensive work with a trainer and more socialization and structure
- As time goes on and the trainer introduces themself properly to the dog, they can start asking things of the dog in obedience
- Keep working on developing a solid foundation of obedience, the dog must listen to you and work for you in order to respect you and accept a correction for these things
-Lastly, you WILL have to put your dog in uncomfortable situations, that's the only way to fix his issues, not "traumatic" but uncomfortable, yes, and the trainer has to guide you. Like as an example, I have a skittish fear-biter muzzled and dog must "step" (a command they know) onto a standing stranger (like with paws on the persons legs as if jumping up) they're afraid of and hold a stay there for 5 seconds-- a few times and they're totally comfortable doing it and their fears are subsiding, they get praised for it.
But to give benefit of the doubt to all these trainers, none of us were there, we haven't seen the dog, and so we're only guessing here!!
Anyway, I do not like what I read. I totally agree with muzzling him and having her walk him around but...
- As a trainer, there is no reason to put pressure on a dog when you haven't introduced yourself properly and the dog does not know you, unless you are the bullying type but then the dog will never be himself around you-- when a trainer is very hard from the get-go, the trainer never sees the dogs true colors like the owners do, they only see the dog on his inhibited behavior. And this is where you get trainers thinking "This dog is perfect for me, the owners are clueless." I find a better approach is to be very fair, to spend enough time to introduce myself to the dog and never be "dominating"
- Theres no need to "test" because you're only making the issues worse- if someone says their dog does something, I take their word for it, I don't need to "see" it.
- You should not have taken the muzzle off right afterwards because now he's going to associate being muzzled with unpleasant things, you have to have him wear the muzzle at home, for like an hour every day, just relazing, so he views it as a regular piece of equipment, I put cheese on the inside and have them eat it
- It may be good for the dog to work with a trainer, if it was a trainer I really trusted I would do a board and train with this pup, this type of dog can greatly benefit from intensive work with a trainer and more socialization and structure
- As time goes on and the trainer introduces themself properly to the dog, they can start asking things of the dog in obedience
- Keep working on developing a solid foundation of obedience, the dog must listen to you and work for you in order to respect you and accept a correction for these things
-Lastly, you WILL have to put your dog in uncomfortable situations, that's the only way to fix his issues, not "traumatic" but uncomfortable, yes, and the trainer has to guide you. Like as an example, I have a skittish fear-biter muzzled and dog must "step" (a command they know) onto a standing stranger (like with paws on the persons legs as if jumping up) they're afraid of and hold a stay there for 5 seconds-- a few times and they're totally comfortable doing it and their fears are subsiding, they get praised for it.
But to give benefit of the doubt to all these trainers, none of us were there, we haven't seen the dog, and so we're only guessing here!!
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