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by BlackthornGSD on 22 May 2010 - 00:05
If he is giving it his all to tell someone to get back, don't come closer and that person approaches anyway, he's being pushed beyond his tolerances and that's very disheartening--it will only teach him that he has to bite to get people to stay away from him. When you tell him to leave it and sit only puts him in more of a situation of discomfort. He's then getting pressure from you and being told he has to tolerate this person of concern--so it's not that he's then becoming comfortable with the person, rather he's not being allowed to leave nor to vocalize that he wants this person to leave.
A dog may learn to control himself in this situation, but you're not fundamentally changing his opinion of other people--if anything, your response may increase his dislike of them. And it's really not ideal to have a dog who is completely silent but will bite if touched.
I think that you should continue to take him out, at a distance from people, and ask him to engage with you--obedience and play. If he sees other people and looks at them with nonaggression, allow him to watch and praise him for non-aggressive interest. If he barks, I'd turn and walk the other way. and then turn back when he is quiet and let him look.
You've already consulted someone who has seen him in person and who his breeder feels comfortable with, so I would follow the advice of that person, pretty much.
Just don't put him in a situation where he's not allowed to express that he doesn't want someone near him--although it is fair to ask him to hold his sit. If you put him in a sit, and he does it, he is trusting you to safeguard him--don't let him be approached by strangers when he is saying they need to stay away.
A dog may learn to control himself in this situation, but you're not fundamentally changing his opinion of other people--if anything, your response may increase his dislike of them. And it's really not ideal to have a dog who is completely silent but will bite if touched.
I think that you should continue to take him out, at a distance from people, and ask him to engage with you--obedience and play. If he sees other people and looks at them with nonaggression, allow him to watch and praise him for non-aggressive interest. If he barks, I'd turn and walk the other way. and then turn back when he is quiet and let him look.
You've already consulted someone who has seen him in person and who his breeder feels comfortable with, so I would follow the advice of that person, pretty much.
Just don't put him in a situation where he's not allowed to express that he doesn't want someone near him--although it is fair to ask him to hold his sit. If you put him in a sit, and he does it, he is trusting you to safeguard him--don't let him be approached by strangers when he is saying they need to stay away.
by Ruger1 on 22 May 2010 - 03:05
BlackthornGSD,
Thanks for the insight....I took Prince downtown this evening and walked at a distance from all the sights and sounds etc and we had a very positive experience. Your advice is very humbling in that I have some very obvious flaws in the handling of my boy.......,this is why I posted here....lots of experience and valuable insight.
Thank you Ruger1
by HtHs on 22 May 2010 - 03:05
I second what BlackthornGSD said.
While the pup shouldn't be allowed to bark his fool head off non-stop at strange people/things, he also shouldn't be forced to interact closer then he is comfortable. This is a quick way to make a pup fearful of anything new. I would keep taking him out & about to all different locations, just DO NOT let people come up & pet him. This will help him become neutral to new people/places without thinking there is something to fear or worry about. Any time he gets to keen with new people/things do some OB or play & get his mind engaged in what you want, not what is going on around him.
While the pup shouldn't be allowed to bark his fool head off non-stop at strange people/things, he also shouldn't be forced to interact closer then he is comfortable. This is a quick way to make a pup fearful of anything new. I would keep taking him out & about to all different locations, just DO NOT let people come up & pet him. This will help him become neutral to new people/places without thinking there is something to fear or worry about. Any time he gets to keen with new people/things do some OB or play & get his mind engaged in what you want, not what is going on around him.
by Ruger1 on 22 May 2010 - 04:05
HtHs, Thanks for the post .....this is really good stuff. Ruger1
by Vixen on 22 May 2010 - 14:05
Firstly, lovely looking dog. May I ask if you would mind briefly describing your relationship and interaction with your dog?
Regards,
Vixen
Regards,
Vixen
by Ruger1 on 22 May 2010 - 16:05
Hello Vixen,
Thank you for the nice compliment and your response. Shortly after bringing Prince home at 8 wks old I became unemployed so I have been with this guy non stop. Like I said in my earlier post I have had nothing but time to socialize this boy. I lost my one year old male 7 months ago from a heart condition that took him suddenly....this boy is his predecessor so to speak. If I am at home he is at my side, actually he follows me around the house all day long and prefers my company above everything and everyone....with the exception of his tennis balls lol. He enjoys the rest of the family but definitely favors interacting with me but I do all his training etc. so I usually have treats in my pocket. lol.. That about sums it up....
Thanks for you time...Ruger1
by Vixen on 22 May 2010 - 17:05
Hello Ruger, Very sorry to hear of the tragic loss of your other dog so young. Do you think, and it would be normal, that you might be loving this dog to the extent that you would not actually want to upset him, in some way that responds to the sadness of losing your other dog, that you want to ensure that life with this one is precious and special. Almost like the more you love him the more he will love you? Could this be the lost 'relationship' that you only had for a short time, and now the opportunity of a 'relationship' that was previously denied? So that was my first question.
The second was your interaction with your dog. However, you told me of your dog's interaction with you. (Everything that he prefers or wants to do). So what authority do you have with him? You did briefly mention that you do training with him, but quickly added: "So I usually have treats in my pocket" - remember this will again be something for his benefit. What rules do you have indoors, that you expect him to comply with? Let us imagine that you want to have a long chat on the telephone with a friend, do you tell him to lay down somewhere in the room of your personal choosing (that is not right by your side, and neither in his bed). Will he remain laying there quietly and relaxed while you chat and have a cup of coffee for an hour?
When he is laying down of his own accord just a few feet from you, and you call his name; "Prince" - does he immediately get up and come over to you, or does he glance up, as if to say; "Yes, what"?
If you are standing next to your boy, and cup your hand under his muzzle, lifting his head to look up and just say his name only as you do so. Will he allow his chin to rest in your hand or move his head away?
Regarding when you are training with him. Whether one exercise or several. Let's say based on doing something either indoors or outdoors that might only be one minute or longer perhaps 10-20 minutes, when you are finished do you make a big happy fuss?
Equally, do you have a set period for training or do little bits at any time during the day?
Remember too that training exercises, is the dog learning to perform a task, it does not automatically mean respect.
Regarding the people barking. If he does not respond inappropriately when you expect him to, do you praise him for not behaving inappropriately?
I don't want to bombard you, but hope this will give you something to consider.
Regards
Vixen
The second was your interaction with your dog. However, you told me of your dog's interaction with you. (Everything that he prefers or wants to do). So what authority do you have with him? You did briefly mention that you do training with him, but quickly added: "So I usually have treats in my pocket" - remember this will again be something for his benefit. What rules do you have indoors, that you expect him to comply with? Let us imagine that you want to have a long chat on the telephone with a friend, do you tell him to lay down somewhere in the room of your personal choosing (that is not right by your side, and neither in his bed). Will he remain laying there quietly and relaxed while you chat and have a cup of coffee for an hour?
When he is laying down of his own accord just a few feet from you, and you call his name; "Prince" - does he immediately get up and come over to you, or does he glance up, as if to say; "Yes, what"?
If you are standing next to your boy, and cup your hand under his muzzle, lifting his head to look up and just say his name only as you do so. Will he allow his chin to rest in your hand or move his head away?
Regarding when you are training with him. Whether one exercise or several. Let's say based on doing something either indoors or outdoors that might only be one minute or longer perhaps 10-20 minutes, when you are finished do you make a big happy fuss?
Equally, do you have a set period for training or do little bits at any time during the day?
Remember too that training exercises, is the dog learning to perform a task, it does not automatically mean respect.
Regarding the people barking. If he does not respond inappropriately when you expect him to, do you praise him for not behaving inappropriately?
I don't want to bombard you, but hope this will give you something to consider.
Regards
Vixen
by Ruger1 on 23 May 2010 - 02:05
Hi Vixen,
Thank you for the thought provoking post.......
I am pretty sure I worry about this guy way too much for both of our good. I have to admit that early on I did struggle with being overly concerned about everything being perfect for Prince. I really can not express how deeply the loss of my other boy affected me. I am sure it plays into my relationship with Prince somehow....it's a hard ..
You really have a way at hitting the target Vixin..lol...I see that maybe my focus is a little too directed to what I need to be doing for Prince's benefit. I needed to teach Prince to be doing for my benefit as well. You gave the example of lying quietly while I speak on the phone...never asked that of him.....he is crated ( very seldom during the day) or sleeping by my side.
When I call him he usually just looks as you gave example ...he does not usually come to me unless I say "come" and about 85% of the time he will come.
He does rest his chin and is very tolerant of me handling him as I am very affectionate with him.....
We do many small training sessions daily and a once a week 1hr training class.
Performing tasks is different than learning respect.......interesting thought. I did not think of it in this way but it is different, isn't it...????......THANKS for that.....I really do LOVE this board.
I probably do not praise enough for his appropriate behavior....I guess I was just expecting it..
You did not bombard me......lots of good things to consider....thanks
Ruger1
by Keith Grossman on 23 May 2010 - 04:05
"There has been one occasion that our friend did not heed the warning signs and reached toward him and was bit."
This is an issue. Where are you, Ruger? Is it safe for me to assume that you're somewhere in the midwest? It's often hard to diagnose issues with a particular dog without seeing how he/she is reacting. I'm in the northwest corner of the Indianapolis metro area and am more than willing to help you work through this if you'd like. I'm available weekends...no charge...just would like to see you get over this hump and progress with your dog. I still think this is a self-confidence issue and one that we can resolve fairly quickly...the folks at the schutzhund club have it right.
This is an issue. Where are you, Ruger? Is it safe for me to assume that you're somewhere in the midwest? It's often hard to diagnose issues with a particular dog without seeing how he/she is reacting. I'm in the northwest corner of the Indianapolis metro area and am more than willing to help you work through this if you'd like. I'm available weekends...no charge...just would like to see you get over this hump and progress with your dog. I still think this is a self-confidence issue and one that we can resolve fairly quickly...the folks at the schutzhund club have it right.
by Vixen on 23 May 2010 - 10:05
Hello Ruger, My sincere sympathy is with you. To lose a much loved pet, but worse when that animal is so young. The distraught sadness must have overwhelmed you. (Now you must be confident with Prince as you move forward together). That way you are living in the moment now together.
Being a Pack animal, Prince needs a Leader. Being his Owner does not make you so. Even loving him is not enough. If it were, the majority of Owners and dogs would not have issues or problems!!! Respect plays a high role in a dog's life. He needs authority from you, that will also recognise his need for a position within his Pack. Thereby giving him confidence in himself and in you, because he will know and understand his role with you, and trust you with leadership. It ensures you take responsibility to give him responsibility of his behaviour, interaction and response to all around him, and that begins indoors. He is being allowed too much of a free rein, that gives him a higher sense of his own status. Then, to other Packs (outsiders/strangers) he is strutting his stuff like a John Travolta, telling them just how important he is!
Take the time to have him lay down, while you are in the same room (this is not merely a Stay exercise) - for a period of time daily. When you 'release him' after either 15/30/60 minutes etc., just a simple; "Ok, away you go" will suffice. The crate is fine (when necessary and needed) but where possible it should not be the crate that has the authority to contain his freedom, it should be his Leader!
Now may I clarify something that was misunderstood - (Text can be awkward at times) .... When I asked about praising appropriate behaviour when you anticipated inappropriate behaviour, that was actually a question to you. I was not suggesting that you should praise when he behaves as you would require. Alpha and Senior Members of a Pack expect appropriate and respectful attitude, they do not congratulate for it. However, they will quickly respond to inappropriate or disrespectful behaviour.
In the same way, you might have been misled by my query as to whether you make a "big happy fuss" after completing any particular training with him? I never do. That would be suggesting that working with me was a pretty rum deal (English expression - unpleasant or boring) and now we have finished ... whoopie time for a party!!!!! No, quite the reverse, I want my dogs to consider what an opportunity to be working and responding to and with their Pack Leader. During training, I guide and encourage, and when the dog knows, and I am aware that he/she is making good effort, I will give myself, (this is afterall between the dog and myself) and therefore I will praise so he/she feels appreciated for his efforts. Not gooey, grateful praise, as if surprised that he should even listen to me, but quick uplifting ("Wow, clever Lad") to show my approval of his efforts. Once we have finished, I give a simple pat and "Yea, Ok". (Remember although that Session of Training may have finished, but your Leadership continues) .........
Ruger, there is no need to reply to my Post, just needed to clarify a few points for you and also give you some food for thought. Enjoy your dog's world.
My Kindest Regards,
Vixen
Being a Pack animal, Prince needs a Leader. Being his Owner does not make you so. Even loving him is not enough. If it were, the majority of Owners and dogs would not have issues or problems!!! Respect plays a high role in a dog's life. He needs authority from you, that will also recognise his need for a position within his Pack. Thereby giving him confidence in himself and in you, because he will know and understand his role with you, and trust you with leadership. It ensures you take responsibility to give him responsibility of his behaviour, interaction and response to all around him, and that begins indoors. He is being allowed too much of a free rein, that gives him a higher sense of his own status. Then, to other Packs (outsiders/strangers) he is strutting his stuff like a John Travolta, telling them just how important he is!
Take the time to have him lay down, while you are in the same room (this is not merely a Stay exercise) - for a period of time daily. When you 'release him' after either 15/30/60 minutes etc., just a simple; "Ok, away you go" will suffice. The crate is fine (when necessary and needed) but where possible it should not be the crate that has the authority to contain his freedom, it should be his Leader!
Now may I clarify something that was misunderstood - (Text can be awkward at times) .... When I asked about praising appropriate behaviour when you anticipated inappropriate behaviour, that was actually a question to you. I was not suggesting that you should praise when he behaves as you would require. Alpha and Senior Members of a Pack expect appropriate and respectful attitude, they do not congratulate for it. However, they will quickly respond to inappropriate or disrespectful behaviour.
In the same way, you might have been misled by my query as to whether you make a "big happy fuss" after completing any particular training with him? I never do. That would be suggesting that working with me was a pretty rum deal (English expression - unpleasant or boring) and now we have finished ... whoopie time for a party!!!!! No, quite the reverse, I want my dogs to consider what an opportunity to be working and responding to and with their Pack Leader. During training, I guide and encourage, and when the dog knows, and I am aware that he/she is making good effort, I will give myself, (this is afterall between the dog and myself) and therefore I will praise so he/she feels appreciated for his efforts. Not gooey, grateful praise, as if surprised that he should even listen to me, but quick uplifting ("Wow, clever Lad") to show my approval of his efforts. Once we have finished, I give a simple pat and "Yea, Ok". (Remember although that Session of Training may have finished, but your Leadership continues) .........
Ruger, there is no need to reply to my Post, just needed to clarify a few points for you and also give you some food for thought. Enjoy your dog's world.
My Kindest Regards,
Vixen
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