Recessive Gene Question - Page 3

And I might add, this white spotting genetic flair is probably the reason I now love GSD's. My first pound pup,  discovered when I was a teenager back in the 70's was just such a pup, "solid" black except for an obvious white "T" on his chest. Yes, it did diminish, but never disappeared, and Teddy as we called him was a super smart dog and still keeps us talking with his stories. Thanks for the memories, he was one hell of a great dog.

My solid black changed in appearence at a year of age and the light vent is considered bi-color.   You can always have some light color here and there like inside the legs and between toes but black is black and a light vent area is not a black.

A solid black with a white chest is not a solid black is it.      Way back when some lines included white dogs and maybe it is recessive genes that cause a white spot.     I dont know what a spot would have to do with not breeding a good working dog.   But I'm pretty sure that those who intend to show blacks would not breed a marked dog. 

I paid a hefty price for my (solid black) the breeder saw me coming.   I love the dog and never did go back to the breeder.

I figure she (the breeder) will get hers in the end anyway.

My two cents.

White on the chest doesn't necessarily mean white dogs were included in the lines.

It's a different gene than coat pigmentation, and can be carried in any dog. Theoretically a white dog could have a gene for a white spot on his chest, but how would we ever know from looking? ^_^ Other dogs such as rotties, golden retrievers, and labs, which do not have white in their ancestry can have white patches, "milk feet", even blazes (very rare).

Thanks for the compliment Silbersee!

  That is my 5th generation of labs I have bred, I have been breeding yelow to yellow and
 only having all yellow  pups for 3 generations, and then thought I would throw in some variety, so
 I used a black stud with my yellow girl, the black stud is a yellow, black, chocolate carrier,

My girl had 5 yellows & 3 blacks & no chocolate, I fiqure I have bred the chocolate out of her!

Anyway, I thought cause I introduced black after all that yellow to yellow that the black got confused,
and just had to leave a big white spot.

I spoke with a lady that used the same stud muffin and sure enough, she had a pup with a big white splash,
the stud has no white on him.

Two Moons -

I think you have your Loci confused.

The White coat in an all white german shepherd/swiss shepherd is not caused by the spotting gene...nor does it cause the spotting gene - which is what the white on the chest is.  I can guarantee you most of those German Dogs with white spots on their chests dont have a white anywhere in their pedigree...the allele is as close to wiped out in the European lines as it could be.

Another note on the Extension white vs the spotting white.  Spotting white affects the skin - turns it pink, while extension white does not...only effects the coat...which is why white shepherds typically have all dark pigmented leather - you might be able to tell if a white is carrying for the gene by looking at the skin underneath the fur...but that is a guess.

One other note - a solid black is still technically a solid black with the spot.  At the Agouti Locus they are still no pattern - or solid.  However - it is still pretty unethical for the breeder to say a solid dog - what they should mention is a solid black with white spotting.

~Cate

I once bred my nice blk/red show line imported female(no white mark) to a nice imported blk/red showline male who had the white chest spot. I didn't think that much about it since I was concerned more with personality, pedigree quality, certified hips, etc. When ALL 7 pups were born with varying degrees of the sire's big obvious white mark, well, I learned something about such. At first I panicked, figuring people wouldn't want them because of the white-I've never seen so much white on pups' chests before that litter, nor have I seen it since then.

It's not something I wanna personally see on my GSD; the richer the pigment, the more the white mark kinda stands out and draws unneeded attention in my opinion. It takes away from the dog's beauty in that, when I first glance at the dog from the front, I don't think first, "gorgeous head" or "nice masculine features"-I think what my eyes are drawn to, "Huh-big noticeable white mark on a beautiful dog....gorgeous head...."

But, it looks like plenty of GSDs get V ratings and they HAVE a white mark on their chest. So I guess it's not considered that major of a deal unless you just personally don't like it. It seems to be a cosmetic thing; some don't mind it and some do.

I would think a big white mark on a black GSD's chest would be rather unsightly and I can't see why someone would want to keep producing such. A few white hairs is not that major of a deal. I've been told the white marking on the chest is a dominant marking if its present. Judging by my one experience with using a stud with an obvious white mark, I seem to agree with that.

True black is typically found if you get a black puppy produced from 3+ generations of black parents/grandparents, so forth. Black pups out of a blk/red or blk/tan parent CAN potentially have some bleed-thru develop around maturity(not usually seen until around 8-14mos old) and look like a iron greyish hair under the front armpits and/or in the feathering on the back legs. There's varying degrees of everything. If you without doubt want an inky-black GSD, then get it out of black parents coming from black grandparents (maybe one sable grandparent because sable seems to typically carry a nice black) for the best liklihood of your pup indeed being SOLID black. And yes, a black GSD is still a black GSD even if it has a white spot-having white on the chest doesn't qualify the dog to be registered as a bi-color(lol).

Katjo, you said that blacks from blk/red / blk/tan parents can occasionally bleed though as they get older. I don't think that's the case because genetically speaking black is recessive to all other accepted colors. Nothing would be under it.

I've always thought it a more universal thing that all dogs have the potential to lighten around the armpits, feathering, toes, and vent as they mature but on a lighter color dog that wouldn't be noticed because it wouldn't stand out so much.

My girl at 6wks(yes, small white spot) but other than that, black.
 SAME female at 5 mos old

This pretty girl was produced by me out of a blk/red WGR show mom and black show/working combo dad. See the tiny bit of the color bleed-thru under her front armpits and on the side of her neck? This was NOT there when she was born and when she was 6-12 wks old, but developed before she was a year old and was noticeable by the time she was a yearling. Didn't affect a wonderful mind for training, but sure amazed me-I expected her to STAY black like she popped out and like she was during her first few mos of life. She doesn't have any off-colored hair between her toes or anything-her feet are indeed pure black.  I always thought she was unique and pretty myself personally because I've not seen that before. I thought if born a black, it'll be a black. Now I see it's not exactly how it HAS to turn out.
This is why I feel the way I do about it-because of how I saw this girl develop.

Considering she didn't come into heat  the first time until 13 mos old, she wasn't doing this over maturity. It just happened, and all happened while she was still a juvenile, not onset in maturity or older age.

Just like there's varying degrees of bi-color (bi-color isn't just merely a bi-color, is it? There is no set percentage of black to red or tan in order to define a bi-color GSD-there are darker bi-colors almost black and there are light bi-colors that could potentially pass for blk/reds or blk/tans), there's different varying degrees of shade depth for sables, and there can be varying shades(depth, if you will)  of black. Sure, black is black, looking at it on simple terms. But anything can have 2ndary genetics that alter the black/white aspect of things into greys sometimes. I've seen nice black GSDs, and I've seen INKY black GSDs where you could CLEARLY tell a pigment difference, even though both were black (seen it in my own litters). I've seen dark bi-colors, I've seen dogs called bi-colors that looked to me to be regular blk/reds.
That's just how I look at it, and I'm not a genetic specialist. :o)