Top Showlines with good protection phase - Page 27

Ravi,

Good points. I think a study of the genetics has merit. To use your VA example. If you were looking for a VA prospect, wouldn't it be a good idea to look at the dogs that have produced VA? The list of VA dogs say you should as a high percentage are VA descendents.

If you were looking for a prospect or starting with a new dog, wouldn't you rather start with something from a long line of dogs that consistently produced a high percentage of the traits you were looking for? What about the ones that look good in the beginning but just don't have the hardward inside to go to the next levels? Don't the genetics, as Walter Martin said; the blood of life, make up a significant portion of the animals capabilities?

Look at all the dogs that are out there that work good, but have never produced anything that works like they do. I don't disagree with anything you have stated, but, I would prefer going into the project with something that displays what it's ancestors are known to produce. Otherwise we have what appears to be a splattering of dogs that work well but there's very little common in the pedigrees. Dogs that are one off exceptions to their genetics. Are these the dogs that will continue producing or are they the exception? Look at the top VA dogs. Every now and then you get a good working dog from a dog with marginal performance. Happens all the time as we see.

Take the dog on the other thread. Everyone agrees the dog is a super performer. Look at the pedigree. I see a dog in there real close that is known for producing dogs with weak temperaments. For every dog from this line that works, and there are a few, there are dozens, maybe hundreds that absolutely do not, I have one of those too. You may remember April, nice working dogs from the same lines. Her work is solid. Not the rest of the litter. Her personality is like the Quartz line while siblings are like the mothers. For all the dogs we see that consistently produce working ability, there are dozens that  do not. Could this be the reason the breed is weak which is why were discussing it in the first place?

Randy: "

For all the dogs we see that consistently produce working ability, there are dozens that  do not. Could this be the reason the breed is weak which is why were discussing it in the first place?"

Thank you Randy for your post which has elements that I will agree.... I definitely agree with you that in planning a breeding you have to look at ancestral working ability.... I like to look at pedigrees that have a high proportion of HGH titled dogs..... I also look for dogs that have a diversity of titles but when push comes to shove, if I have to decide on only paper evidence without actually being able to see the dog then I will put greater reliance on HGH titles... WHY?... because sheep will not go gentle on a dog that is weak simply because the breeder wants the dog to pass the titling exam.... The sad but true state of affairs is that HGH titles today have greater integrity than Schutzhund or IPO titles because of the degree of corruption that has pervaded the awarding of these titles.... I know that the SV has taken steps to restore integrity to their titling process but it will still be years before that produces a shift in the marketplace. So that is the first step.... Is there diversity of titles in the pedigree? Next I look at proven working ability in currently living progeny... in this I look at how I define this ability..... do I see progeny that have been titled and are competing at a regular level or are working in LE.... This is where your phrase highlighted above comes into focus.... the reason for spotty working ability in a breed population is simply because the vast majority of breedings are not done with the focus on working ability..... The so called breeder "who breeds to improve the breed" despite their biggest claims neither breeds nor improves..... they mate and they produce..... and what they produce are dogs that work by accident not by design.... however they do produce dogs that perform one singular activity by design all the time..... they produce dogs that can run..... run with flash and style....never mind where they are running to or what they are running from!

Ravi,

Interesting observation,,,,sheep don't lie. I hadn't considered that.

Working ability in current and living progeny. There's a good place to start. After all this discussion (and I don't think we're finished with the list) about working ability, where are the dogs today that represent the lines we have identified in this exercise? What's out there from some of the better performers that one could breed to?

Does anyone know?

Of all the showline breeders that breed for working ability, I need someone,,,, just one to come here and reply. I really want to see if anyone out there bothers knowing this stuff?

The following are breeders that I consider as having solid knowledge about breeding showlines with working ability:

1. Randy Tyson of Witmer Tyson in Menlo Park, CA
2. Kathy Wilmoth of Wilmothhaus
3. Dee Clark in New England
4. Larry Vinzant in Texas
5. Karen Sinclair of Canada (known as dogwood on this board)

Of these I know that Randy would never post on any board

You may get some input from Kathy Wilmoth, Dee Clark or Karen Sinclair... and I would defintely welcome that

sheep don't lie?

a ventriloquist ran out of gas on the way to a show in Las Vegas. In the distance he spotted a teepee that turned out to be the home of Big Chief, the last of his tribe. Big Chief invited the traveler in for supper and to wait on AAA.

Big Chief was not very talkative so the ventriloquist decided to talk to Big Chiefs companions, a dog, a horse and a sheep.

He turned to the dog and asked how he liked living with Big Chief. Oh, it's great. We hunt rabbits every morning and lay around the rest of the day.

Then he asked the horse the same. Oh, I love it. Big Chief takes me to good grass and water every day.

Big Chief's eyes kept getting bigger but still he did not speak.

Turning to the sheep, the ventriloquist said "you sure are a pretty little ewe. How does Big Chief treat you.

At this, Big Chief jumped up and chased the ewe out of the teepee. "that sheep does nothing but lie. you can't believe a word she says".

couldn't help it. the door was too wide.

Rik
 
 

Rik is so Baaaaaaad that he's Gooooooood!

What a great read, I hope someone save it all or gets it posted in the articles section. My week has been long and busy so I've not been able to contribute nearly as much as I'd like.

Ibrahim- if you are looking for more dogs for your research, I can get you the pedigrees of about a dozen show line police K9 in my area. Some I know off the top of my head, but my boss keeps a file of copied paperwork/pedigrees that I know she'd let me look at. You've done a tremendous job here.

I wish we had input from breeders in Europe as well. It would be valuable to know which current showline dogs are showing high working ability in Germany, with their significantly higher concentration of quality dogs.

Randy, on the other side of the spectrum- could a person (privately, of course) use the exact same system to isolates weakness and lack of ability, therefore helping themselves to avoid it? I understand the trouble with a poor working dog is the difficulty in knowing whether the issue is genetics or training, but if a pattern emerges it would be hard to ignore.

By the same token (off topic somewhat, I know), what about health problems other than hips/elbows? Early cancer, EPI, DM, heart problems, etc? Could we collect pedigrees on dogs afflicted with such and use this system the same way to try and discover the sources?  I understand posting such information publicly could create hard feelings at least, perhaps on a private board/email list we could share findings? 

VonIsengard,

Yes that will be highly appreciated and one suggestion here: I have made a note of this thread to some breeder friends in Germany requesting them to take part, I'm sure some of you have friend breeders in US and Europe, I suggest that you invite them to share their knowledge here. And I find it strange that neither Gustav nor Preston appeared on this important thread !!

Ibrahim

I would look to dogs bred on Cello Romerau or Quanto Wienerau