If you had a Magic Wand.... - Page 25

Susie 

Susie, my point is this: a GSD anywhere that does not HOLD any IPO competitions, ( as used to be the case in the UK many years ago), or where IPO/Shutzhund opportunities were very few and far between, (as is still a bit the case in the UK) and where it is / was therefore often pointless training the dog for IPO competitions, has either to be trained & tested in some alternative discipline, or not trained & tested at all. I prefer that the dog should be trained and tested, in whatever competition IS available. Rather than an attitude that says: oh, we can't do IPO, and nothing else is any good, so we need not bother, because people on a GSD website somewhere are saying: " Oh, there is only one way to demonstrate the dog is any good, nothing else counts / shows you the dogs' aptitudes and capabilities " .

If an owner / handler is prepared to put the hard yards into training for a different discipline, why should they be discouraged ? That is not to say the other ways of working dogs are superior to IPO; but it is a way of acknowledging what can be achieved, by dog and human,
that IPO does not have to be the be-all and end-all, just because the SV or anyone else prefers it.

Excellent post, Susie! It brings to mind a breeder of Border collies in the USA whose breeding program focuses on producing agility dogs, her dogs are fabulous in this sport; but when a man I know who is a shepherd and also travels the world competing in sheepdog trials tested one of her dogs, he said the dog didn't have the correct temperament for herding. In my experience it doesn't take long for a breed to lose characteristics once deemed essential to the breed.

Susie, I agree with the gist of your post that a breedworthy GS should be capable of all three disciplines. I also think that breeders that breed dog that demonstrate the inability to do all three areas should NOT be breeding those dogs. I really don't care if you do IPO, PSA, SDA, HGH, Mondio, Ring, or have a training club that trains in all three areas....but I agree that when you neglect an area....you will lose capability. I don't know why Pet folks get upset when breeding discussions take place and folks eliminate dogs that are more pet from a breeding choice. Doesn't mean they aren't great dogs and fine family members...but they are not breedworhty if they have health or structure, or temperament deficiencies....plain and simple.
And bitework is a part of temperament from the beginning....even HGH trials had bitework....so it really isn't a matter of private interpretation.

I think maybe posters do not appreciate that if you Trial a working breed in the UK, you can go from Companion Dog to Utility Dog to Tracking Dog to Police Dog, in the stakes. And PD includes stopping 'criminals', by bitework and 'Bark & Hold'. People do this with GSDs, with Border Collies, (and sometimes with Boxers and Rottweilers and Dobermans and Hovawarts and ...). Conversely, Agility is a fun sport, it is not regarded as something one 'trials' working dogs in. Although as a competitive sport, it now has quite high standards.

In a country where there is a bit less obsession with the GSD as a biting, 'protection' / military uses dog, obviously not everyone goes on to do the PD Stake, with the sleevework stuff - but then, like IPO, it doesn't actually test their Herding ability either, you have to go separately for HGH for that.  Never has been an indication of inbred 'breed worth' for a Shepherd (or a Border Collie) in the Herding aspect.

Pete, you misunderstood. I was only saying that just because the owner says something doesn't mean it isn't true, any more than it means it IS true. I **fully** agree that anything said with no objectivity needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

The thread wasn't about Qira- I just used it because it's a situation where I know the backstory, to point out where it was wrong to assume that Dawulf is a clueless pet owner- she has seen quite a bit in a short time (5 years or so), because she cares to learn, and has tried all sorts of things, gone to trials, trained in different venues, etc. She's done exactly what you are always telling people to do- get out there, go to clubs, talk to handlers, talk to breeders, meet some notorious dogs, etc. I believe she has interacted with a WUSV champion or two, as well...my ONLY point being, it's just as unfair to assume someone knows NOTHING as it is to assume they know EVERYTHING.

Regarding Qira...she got the dog as an adult, almost middle-aged. Her lack of working titles is partly on ME, not Dawulf, but mostly the fact that the dog had bilateral UAP and surgery in both elbows at 5 months. Repetitive jumping was/is off the table. It's frankly a miracle and credit to Dawulf that she's still sound going on 10.

I agree with Susie on versatility and that a GSD incapable of IPO is not breedworthy. I have NO problem with someone choosing to do agility, but I want them to choose it because it's what they prefer, not because their dog is incapable of bitework. Any single-purpose breeding, in my opinion, is a detriment to the breed as a whole.

A recent stud I used was partly chosen because among his siblings, there was versatility. They were/are good at several things. His brother was a national level agility dog while he's IPO3, FH1. They were good, not just adequate, at more than one thing, which I think is a necessary ingredient in the continued production of versatile working dogs.

One thing that scares me recently is the big trend to produce "therapy" dogs. What people are seeking is just not the standard for the GSD.

Hundmutter, I am the last person belittling others willing to title a dog in ANY sport.
It´s hard work, and it´s good for dog and handler, but you need to differ between a good dog ( maybe the current agility champ ) and a breed worthy dog.

In case there are no chances to train a dog according to its standard, there are 2 options:
1. Don´t breed, just have fun with your dog
2. Try to establish a training group ( in case there are not enough people interested to do so, there is no need for breeding working dogs)

This may sound harsh, but why breed a working dog breed when people don´t want to work the dogs?
There are pet and companion breeds enough out there. In case there is no market for a working dog, I should quit breeding dogs, not change the breed.

Why breeding working dogs that are not able to work? Only because people want to own a pet looking like a German Shepherd Dog? That´s like building race cars with a Beetle engine.

A lot of people complain IPO is "too easy", "doesn´t select for real working ability" - but what about all those dogs not able to title at all, not even a shitty 70/70/80 IPO1, but are bred on a regular basis outside of Germany?

By breeding according to the standard ( titles, breed survey, health tests ) statistically in almost every litter there is at least one puppy more than suitable for "pet homes only". There is absolutely no reason to breed for them - and there is absolutely no reason to breed those pet quality puppies later on.

At that point we are back at the beginning - sure there are untitled, good dogs out there, sure there are breeders out there able to breed good dogs without titles - but HOW THE HECK shall a potential customer be able to differ between the good breeder and the sh.... breeder?

I don't disagree with you Susie, but it is not YOU I was castigating for constant over-generalisation !

 

Also, it is difficult to "swim against the tide" in countries where there is no insistence on formalising any sort of competition or training, for any breed.

Of course there have always been a lot of 'pet' buyers who wanted the 'look' of the dog, rather than the true abilities of the dog (in other breeds, too - GSDs are not unique in that) and it is getting worse as time passes, not better (you already know, I'm sure, that I feel an awful lot of owners should never have Shepherds !)  You can tell people they should train their dogs, when they buy a puppy from you, but you cannot actually enforce that they do, in the absence of ANY formal regulatory measures by Club(s), or Government, whatever the ideal situation or the schemes / competitions available.

"A recent stud I used was partly chosen because among his siblings, there was versatility. They were/are good at several things. His brother was a national level agility dog while he's IPO3, FH1."

You know I don't read well. Does that mean the stud was untitled?

Susie, great post.

There are countless other breeds- and there is nothing wrong with them. I have some myself (APBTs and Chihuahuas) that are companions. Why change a working breed into a companion breed just because the buyers are lazy? Get a dog that suits YOUR lifestyle/needs. As a whole, aggression is vilified and I think that is a huge part of the problem and why we're seeing this trend toward Goldens in a GSD suit. I would imagine as a new buyer, trying to navigate the Internet, it would be very, very difficult to tell which dogs are closer to the standard and which have been created to pander to the masses. And often, the dogs closes to the standard are NOT the ones people want to buy as pets. So, to the breeder relying on dogs for their income, you can see how easy it is to breed down.