Czech GSD's with bad hips - Page 25

Gustav, many workingdog breeders here have a very large number checked for HD/ED in the kennel club official registry, maybe because they want to know what they produce and mostly sell to more serious workingdog people that also want to help the breed and the breeder, it´s not a huge cost either. I agree that perfection in one are may impact others, however if 30-40% HD must be accepted this is a pretty sad situation for a workingdog breed, only breeding for drives and neglect HD/ED too much or health in general isn´t  breeding for a balanced dog in both health and mentality either.

I belive as you said some real good dogs produce much HD/ED, maybe because as you said in certain lines have been more focused on other things than HD/ED. Still, in my opinion if such dogs or lines give much healthproblems, are they really good breedingdogs? There are many other dogs that produce both nice dogs and very good HD/ED, so I don´t know if we can say it´s a fact that good dogs produce much HD, but asyou said if there is much HD in a line and you linebreed it´s naturall you increase the problem I suppose. It´s all comes back to knowing so much as possible about certain lines, good and bad, hard to know if you don´t have much info about HD for example, or workingdrives in the offspring. Some dogs that have produced really bad HD/ED here in sweden are then used in other countries, I wonder how much HD/ED they produced in their new country if the offspring would be tested for this.

Anyway, I send you some info in PM. Not any secrets I belive why some breeder have so low HD/ED, good females from strong HD/ED lines mated with studs that themselves are producing little or acceptable levels of HD/ED, breeding based on much information of the breedingdogs, nothing more or less than that;)

Hans, the question was more about the severe hips, where is it coming from...
Your answer will hopefully help many of us on this site...b'cos earlier posts suggested and I do agree with some of the posts:

- it's not mainly the parents but one has to look at siblings of the parents as well...
- one has to look further back into the pedigree...
- one has to also look at the other siblings in a specific litter...
- an A3 dog may produce more A1 dogs than his A1 sibling will ever produce...

Johann, you know I would never find 30 to 40 percent hips acceptable for any type of reason. I understand your position and not sure where we disagree since I have no problem with people certifying hips....my problem is the use of hip certs singularly to make breeding decision. Thx!

Well my guess is the dog wasn't sedated. Since you've helped to xray so many you may have come acrossed a dog with hips like these. If you happened to be the tech on the rear end of the dog, you would know it's very easy to palpate crepetis when a dog has this much remoldeling going on. In those stuations most times techs I worked with just snap a quick xray for a preliminary look. Most normal dogs fight the manipulation and dogs with hips like these fight it even more because it is very painful for them to have their legs stretched and rotated inwardly. Could OFA have found a better positioned xray of a dog with severe HD that was deeply sedated for the xray? Yes. Would it have made the hips look any different? No.You yourself has said that OFA doesn't get to see the truly bad xrays, and throws them away after they read them, so maybe this was the best they could find in their archives? What do you think of the other xrays they have posted on their website?

It' s evident you don't like OFA, what about the SV, PennHip, the Czech scheme. Any of them any good in your opinion?

OK, gustav, but there are plenty of breeders both show and work that have 30-40% or more HD if I look at the statistic available, which make sense when the average in the breed is not under 30% in germany for example, not all these dogs are severly dysplastic of course. I guess my point is a breeder can´t know how much HD he produce if not even half of his "production" are evaluated for this and not all dogs with HD show any signs of it.

The x-ray above shows displastic hips. no reason to repeat them - poor positioning or not -they will stay bad. Why spent more money for better pics? There is no reason for OFA to ask for another x-ray, the result would be the same.

Gustav, Prager -  for YOUR breeding programm OFA might not be necassary, because you x-ray for yourself and you know your lines, but for the whole breed OFA/SV  is very important for the betterment of the health. Although right know there are 23 (?) breeding females and several stud males listed on the Jinopo homepage sometimes even you need fresh blood. You can´t know the x-rays of all the ancestors/littermates/siblings of the "new" stud or the new brood bitch. Do you by then "learning by doing" or do you take a look at official results, and are you happy about every result you are able to find for your decision about the new addition to your breed? Or do you even believe the seller, who tells you everything is fine?

Hans, regarding the positioning in the OFA example of severely dysplastic--I agree with Blitzen that it's unlikely this dog was even lightly sedated, let alone sedated to full relaxation, and with hips that badly constructed, it may not have been possible to get the dog to allow any better positioning than this, as it very likely it would be painful for the dog.  No reason to cause the more discomfort just for the sake of proving a point.

Yes, lets blame OFA for people sending in poor X-rays.  OFA should control that better.....LOL

That was a thread killer, Slam!!

No, I have a better idea,  let's blame OFA for posting in their textbook part hips positioned like that. It gives a public impression that this is acceptable positioning. There are big differences in reading hips if positioning is not right. especially between grades good fair and mild HD.  All pictures below are from http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html

What about this? Where are the knee caps.  
What about this ? Crooked as a barrel of snakes and again no knee caps!.:
What about this ? No knee caps again and again not too straight:
What about this? Are you kidding me? Crocked as a dog leg, no knee caps. 
And there is more. NONE of the pictures were positioned properly. This suppose to be educational page of OFA!!! Good enough for horse shoes and hand granades. You would think that that they would select well positioned pictures and show the knee caps. All pictures are sloppy and at best do not show kneecaps. If that is a company which you want to trust unequivocally than  go ahead.
If they put this in their educational part then what do they allow to be read ?  This is a organization which you trust with your dogs to evaluate your dogs hips and to build your breeding program on and like lemmings to follow their decisions.?  OH maybe we should go complain to what ever association as Hexe suggested.  No my style though. Instead I do my reading and  yes I do use OFA as a guide and yes I will do OFA to keep the masses happy,  but I'll be damned if I will rely on this as you suggest. I understand that for some it  is fun to disagree with Hans. But this?
Give me a physical brake!
Hans