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by missbeeb on 23 January 2009 - 20:01
Truthfully? I don't really know about the justification angle. Would I? No, but many breeders know their own breeding so well, that they really do know what they've got at a young age.
by Kaffirdog on 23 January 2009 - 20:01
Hi Missbeeb
Nothing wrong with your questions, just got a bit swamped in the deluge I think.
There are plenty of showline dogs that can work, but the size and construction of some of them is a handicap they would be better without and the typical showdog temperament, while bouncy and outgoing, does not seem to take pressure well. The fact is, if you are an ambitious sports dog competitor, you may well have the experience to bring the most out a dog of this type, but you will also have the sense not to waste your time on it when you can have a dog that has so much more to give you with less effort. Personally I think a lot of showline dogs that could have been half decent Schutzhund dogs are totally ruined by fast track training to scrape through an early title, never to be worked again.
The bitework is considered so important because the way the dog bites and holds is a very good guide to its nerves, mindset and balance if you know what to look for. The weaknesses shown there will be displayed in other aspects of the dogs life.
I personally don't mock any form of training, hell, one of my HOT Schutzhund qualified dogs can do freestyle dog dancing! He can do it because he is correct size and build and therefore agile enough to move on a sixpence,
Glad you asked Missbeeb, most show people don't know the answers to your questions and are too arrogant to ask.
Margaret N-J.
Nothing wrong with your questions, just got a bit swamped in the deluge I think.
There are plenty of showline dogs that can work, but the size and construction of some of them is a handicap they would be better without and the typical showdog temperament, while bouncy and outgoing, does not seem to take pressure well. The fact is, if you are an ambitious sports dog competitor, you may well have the experience to bring the most out a dog of this type, but you will also have the sense not to waste your time on it when you can have a dog that has so much more to give you with less effort. Personally I think a lot of showline dogs that could have been half decent Schutzhund dogs are totally ruined by fast track training to scrape through an early title, never to be worked again.
The bitework is considered so important because the way the dog bites and holds is a very good guide to its nerves, mindset and balance if you know what to look for. The weaknesses shown there will be displayed in other aspects of the dogs life.
I personally don't mock any form of training, hell, one of my HOT Schutzhund qualified dogs can do freestyle dog dancing! He can do it because he is correct size and build and therefore agile enough to move on a sixpence,
Glad you asked Missbeeb, most show people don't know the answers to your questions and are too arrogant to ask.
Margaret N-J.
by Mystere on 23 January 2009 - 21:01
Immaturity is immaturity, regardless of what one may, or may not know of the bloodlines. I expect a Kennedy ( ref--the closest thing to American royalty, those Kennedys) to produce big teeth and a pointed chin. They all seem to have them. 
But, I wouldn't expect them to start producing more of Rose's teeth and jawline at age 14, just because we know that is what they will produce. 
But, to each his own. Just seems odd, after looking at Videx's website and all the references to SV standards...
But, I wouldn't expect them to start producing more of Rose's teeth and jawline at age 14, just because we know that is what they will produce. But, to each his own. Just seems odd, after looking at Videx's website and all the references to SV standards...
by animules on 23 January 2009 - 21:01
missbeeb, Some breeders may know THEIR OWN bloodlines so well they feel comfortable with it. What about when they are using bloodlines other then their own? Neither this dogs sire nor dam are the kennel name, so obviously not bred by the breeder.
Anybody willing to breed their dogs so young should not bash others. It just makes the person look silly.
No justification at all other then $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
by missbeeb on 23 January 2009 - 21:01
Margaret, you said: The bitework is considered so important because the way the dog bites and holds is a very good guide to its nerves, mindset and balance if you know what to look for. The weaknesses shown there will be displayed in other aspects of the dogs life.
Would you elaborate on this for me please... and thanks for answering!
Would you elaborate on this for me please... and thanks for answering!
by 4pack on 23 January 2009 - 21:01
Missbeeb, gripwork was very important to the Cpt in regards to the choosing of dogs. Not just manwork but the grips on sheep in the begining, before Sch was in place as a test. Courage must be tested and how else can you test it, without bitework? Stress is very easy to see in a dog on the bite, grips get weak, shallow, chewy. Body language changes, the dogs voice changes, you can test this with sheep or other stock and not just on men but not everyone has access to stock for working. The standard has always called for full calm grips.
by Held on 23 January 2009 - 21:01
ok i acn not b elive that this thing is still going on.well i had some more time to waste so here it is as i always belived and said that sv and fci and anyother freaking organization they are all crap they have not done any thing to help the breed at all ,they run by people like you and me every one is got their own agenda and these organizations have not done their jobs cause we still seem to have issues with this breed.shepherds have as many standards as many there are breeders.every one wants to do their own thing.you can not stop every one or any one for that matter.the problem is we should have stuck to the standard of the creater of this breed.but now every fucker out there think he or she is gonna fix things.STOP DREAMING.GO AND PLAY WITH YOUR DOGS.when it comes to dogs every one is God,not only sv or fci and anyother organization freaking you want to throw in here.so there have a nice one.God i feel great i love this messageboard.!HE HA.
by snajper69 on 23 January 2009 - 21:01
Bite work can tell you if the dog has a clear head for once, it can tell yo how well he can cope with stressful situation (bite work tends to be stressful on all dog's including working lines some deal better with it than others), dog that can cope with stress is able to respond better in all situation, etc. it's hard to explain it in a text. Best way go to a local club with your dog and work with him, you will notice very fast strengths and weeknesses of your dog. Even if you not into it, it will improve your relationship with your dog.
by missbeeb on 23 January 2009 - 21:01
OK... don't laugh me off the board here!
When the dogs grip gets, weak, shallow, chewy etc, is this something that is there from the outset of gripwork or can it become like this later? I ask because training in other spheres... dogs can become dull / bored and a different handler / method can fix that. Am
I right to assume that's not the case with bite work? That a weakness is obvious from the start?
by RLHAR on 23 January 2009 - 21:01
Missbeeb, to add to what a couple of others have said here, there are many nuances to bitework that if you don't experience it are hard to explain over the internet but they tell you a lot about a dog's character.
You can see examples of genuine confidence, clear headedness, good nerves, work ethic and strength of character. Bitework is very psychologically demanding of a dog, especially when you start to work in the idea of the 'out' and the amount of control a dog must have over themselves and obedience to their handler in a very intense situation for all involved.
On the flip side, a dog who is weak in these areas, this is going to show in how he/she reacts to the pressure placed upon them in bitework.
For me, the confidence and clear headedness my girl shows on the field in bitework transfers over to the confidence I have in her when I take her into new or strange situations. My vet in particular and I have often discussed how most of the Shepherds he works with are scared to death, hiding behind their owners and potential fear biters when they come into the office, where as my girl always has a wag in her tail, a lick for everyone and never needs to be muzzled when they are working with her.
Except for her A-Stamp x-rays which needed to be precise, they've never had to sedate her for taking x-rays.
You can see examples of genuine confidence, clear headedness, good nerves, work ethic and strength of character. Bitework is very psychologically demanding of a dog, especially when you start to work in the idea of the 'out' and the amount of control a dog must have over themselves and obedience to their handler in a very intense situation for all involved.
On the flip side, a dog who is weak in these areas, this is going to show in how he/she reacts to the pressure placed upon them in bitework.
For me, the confidence and clear headedness my girl shows on the field in bitework transfers over to the confidence I have in her when I take her into new or strange situations. My vet in particular and I have often discussed how most of the Shepherds he works with are scared to death, hiding behind their owners and potential fear biters when they come into the office, where as my girl always has a wag in her tail, a lick for everyone and never needs to be muzzled when they are working with her.
Except for her A-Stamp x-rays which needed to be precise, they've never had to sedate her for taking x-rays.
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