Czech GSD's with bad hips - Page 21

Slamdunc, in truth, the only reason I put that question to Gustav is because I've been reading his commentary from the point of view that he DOES feel sound hips are necessary for a law enforcement candidate...but I worry that there may be some who will play the semantics game, and read him as saying dysplasia is OK as long as the dog can still do the job.  Personally, I'd take a dim view of any department that would continue to purchase dogs from a vendor who had the latter point of view, since as a taxpayer I want them to purchase dogs that can do the job over a reasonable life-span, not just for a few years until they break down from the advanced arthritis.  So I want to 'hear' Gustav say it in the simplest form, so no one can point to his words and try to use them as justification for breeding a dysplastic dog. Because so far, neither he [nor Hans, for that matter] has said anything as simple as this: 

A dysplastic dog is not a candidate for law enforcement work OR for breeding, no matter how slight the dysplasia.

Because despite the way this thread opened, I think that is the IMPORTANT point of the entire discussion--is it ever acceptable to breed a dysplastic dog? 

Hexe,
I completely agree with you.  I understand the point that you are making and it is a very important point to make and clarify.  I just got a call from one of our handlers today with a 5 year old Czech GSD that is a dual purpose Patrol / Narcotics K-9 that is suffering from neurological issues and will probably be retired.  For a variety of reasons the handler is devastated.  He just left the specialists office about an hour ago.  I have noticed issues with this dogs performance for a couple of weeks and had to convince him and my Sgt to take the dog to the vet.  The first vet couldn't find anything wrong with the dog and suggested more "conditioning" which infuriated me.  The Sgt asked for my opinion (often a big mistake because I don't sugar coat things like I do on here when in person or tell him just what he wants to hear) on the diagnosis and I told him I disagreed with it and the dog has a spinal issue or a neurological problem.  Well, the specialist confirmed that today and is recommending a Neurologist for the third opinion and a more accurate diagnosis.  The handler left feeling the dog will be out of work shortly and retired.  

Retiring a Police Dog at 5 years old has a lot of ramifications depending on the size of the PD and the handler's experience.  This dog was just settled into his role and working really nicely in both Patrol and Narcotics.  The handler is a first time handler who was just getting the hang of what it takes to be a decent K-9 Officer.  If we get a new Sgt I am willing to bet this guy does not get a new dog and goes back into Uniform Patrol working a beat.  I told the handler today that it wasn't safe for him to work this dog in a patrol function any longer unless the Neurologist performs a miracle.  he will use the dog for Narcotics searches only but he is done IMO with patrol work.  

Here's the thing - would I trust Gustav if he told me a specific dog had normal hips? Of course I would, but he's the only GSD breeder I can say that about off the top of my head. Maybe if I got to know Hans et al better I might feel the same about him, I don't know.

This  thread has run its course for me, not much more to be said. I still fail to understand why the owner of a dog used for breeding hasn't had that dogs hip/elbows certifed. I'd hate to hear the responses I'd get if I said - my AM CH has the ability to be a podium dog and work as a police dog. I just don't title her because the trials aren't honest, never have been. I know of dogs that have passed that shouldn't have, and dogs that have had to be trialed 3, 4 times to get an IPO1. So I'm not doing even though I know she can title........trust me. .

Stress is the number one reason people in law enforcement get retired if your in CA the retirement income for IDL is very good. So with that said most K9s get retired before alot of them have hip problems. Usually they start needing medication like their handler and then after a couple of years of that it's time to hit the beach. With everything else that comes with the job most end up not being able to stay at a high level of alertness and workability. It's really sad because they feel worthless not being able to perform the way they are used to.


You were talking about K9s and their handlers me too.

Jbasler,
You lost me!  I'm with Blitzen and I'm out of this thread and now is a perfect time to go.

Hexe You assume too much. 

How so?

Slamdunc, I could not have explained what I have been saying any better than you did. I breed for functional hips in the work world....have been for 40 plus years. A dog that has anything worse than mild( or NZ hips in Germany), are not functional for LE work. Btw, Dr. Smith did my last Pennhipp which was a DI of 32/38. Thanks Jim! But I think others have also figured out that with the passion and knowledge I have for the breed it would be ludicrous for me to advocate breeding or working moderate or worse dogs because they are possibly capable. I used to breed for the total dog and the real world.....these are still the foundations of this breed in my mind. I don't keep up with the show and sport world in terminology , though I guess I probably know as much as most about both. Like I said, this is a common sense breed, and common sense people should have no problem understanding my post. Take care!

Of course if a breeder and his puppbuyers x-rayed a large deal of what the kennel produce by a specialst that is just as good as an offcial registry and this information is availabe for all to see then official registry is not essential. Still, this alternative seems less reliabe than an official registry where all dogs are free to see and the specialst doing the evaluations have no economic intresst in what the results shows. If this is not an option you as a puppybuyers have to trust the breeder and his specialist, and the breeder is still depending on his puppybuyers also screen the dogs somewhere to get a more complete picture. You can have the best system in the world, it´s still of not much use if not many are using it. A breeder would also still be dependent on other registries or people like himself if he want information for example on hip statistics from a cetain stud.

Also, it´s not about caring only about HD/ED, perfect hips with weak mentality and other healthproblems is not better, but this doesn´t have anything to do with that a serious breeder or buyer would like to eliminate the risk of getting a bunch of HD in a litter. And yes, many dogs with slight HD shows no problem, they are functional so to speak, evaluating hips in an official registry is more about decrease HD/ED, not to evaluate if a policedog is likely to be functional even if the offcial registry says he has HD or ED in some degree. 

There are many OFA Excellent and Good dogs that I WOULDN'T breed to because of hips.....now that should really give my detractors some reasons to think I'm unethical....lol. I have had people curse me out because they were going to breed to normals together and I told them I wouldn't do it because of hips. ...BUT both hips were certified and they had the Amen section telling them don't worry....wanna know the results of the breeding.....naw it wouldn't fit the nice script we want people to believe. How often do I have people get in touch with me heartbroken because they brought a dog from a reputable breeder with dogs with guaranteed hips and the breeder wasn't up front with them about both parents being certified don't mean shit. This happens far too often, that's why my folks believe in me, I tell them the truth about hips beforehand, but let them know that I am using my years of looking at all aspects of the equation to try to produce the best hips within the breed spectrum. The only program I have seen that had above 90% free hip production produced dogs that were not fit for anything but being a pet, and maybe the show ring. If others know of a kennel today that is producing 90 plus of HD free dogs with good strong temperament(like the standard says) please identify them for me......matter of fact the world would like to know and it shouldn't be kept secret so all can benefit. So again I'm on the wrong side of the fence, because I think breeders are unethical for breeding dogs based just on parents hips, and I abhor breeders that lead people to think that their Doug's hips will be fine because they are certified. And trust me, many people come to me and say they know in their heart what I am saying makes more sense than what the reputable breeder told them. Lies don't figure and figures don't lie!