Training Retrieves- methods - Page 2

and uh  look around all normal people cannot run ...if they did they would drop dead they are so out of shape..I will remove the video so you can post yours

akc, scutzhund, ring, all the same. or can just call it competitive obedience. usually forced retrieve is introduced to fine tune with the goal of perfection. that fine tuning that a sprinter training for the olympics does. why force retrieve a dog who doesn't like to naturally retrieve at all? unless you are trying to make a statement of how much a badass trainer you are. even the world's best trainers prefer dogs that will show least conflict. ala path of least resistance.

Who in their right mind would not want to train with little to no compulsion? Most just train with what they are comfortable with and with what they know works. Zero compulsive retrieve training will catch on once the results are widely available for all to see. Here's a neat little to no stress training type, but of course common sense would say that every dog requires a unique training method.

Both statements are true.  I start out all my retrieves with the clicker.

The clicker retrieve playlist shows the steps from start to hold - www.youtube.com/user/loulovesbodeus

My old dog had a 100% clicker retrieve, usually getting SG at high trials - www.youtube.com/watch

My next 2 dogs have NEPOPO retrieves, I start with the basic clicker retrieve, then I use low level electric to complete - www.youtube.com/watch

Louise

It seems that the question that is behind the "retreive" question is what are your beliefs regarding "positive" versus "compulsive" methods? I began using compulsive methods over thirty years ago because that was what was in the literature of the time.POOR DOGS!! You will do what I want or I will hurt you until you do! Yes,dogs and humans will often comply with demands when they have learned that pain is the alternative.Is that going to foster trust? Is it going to make the dog work harder,or try something else if his first try was a mistake?Is that who you choose to be as a trainer.In the same breath,"stays" are compulsive and I train and use them.It's how you get there.I'm assuming that when you were refering to forced retrieving you we're meaning using an ear pinch.There are methods that are compulsive that don't involve the ear pinch(for teaching the retrieve.
I have taught my rottweiler to retrieve using a positive,food based method and he was a great retriever.He proved it many times during his obedience career.He later expanded that to getting anthing that fell to the floor in our home.If he wanted to play he would sometimes bring you objects in the hope of "playing the game".
That being said,I honestly believe two things came together,one was a dog who enjoyed the stimulation and a method that encouraged him.

DEPENDS ON THE DOG!! and depends on the quality of training/handling....a person very good at training retrieves may get a dog beyond his potential with just motivation...a person not good at retrieve training can fall short of a dogs potential in motivation.

My last dog I had a reliable retrieve all motivation.  The dumbell was a very significant object and he did not display much autonomous behavior with the excersise...aside from a bit of chewing he was a reliable retriever.

My current dog I chose to do force to make reliable, because in motivation it was on her terms and the play object (dumbell) was not as significant to her as the tug or ball.  I gave her the opportunity to learn the retrieve in play/motivation, she learned but it was not reliable...it was not satisfactory to me in the time I spent on it so went to force. 

Before force, if she even thought I had a ball or tug on me she'd drop the dumbell and want the ball/tug...so it made it difficult to give her a secondary reward.  After force since she learned there was penalty for not doing what I asked, and learned ball/tug reward was conditional to completing the task first....then I was alble to give her a secondary reward with a ball/tug .

After force I went back to motivation...the dogs highest motivator is bitework, so exploited that to make her retrieves faster and purposeful (retrieves for bite rewards). 


Here's a video, first set of retrieves is training with bite rewards...sorry about the crappy quality taken on my phone, I don't have any other recent video's of retrieve training...but you can get an idea of how the bite rewards work.
Second set of retrieves is in a trial...still needs work, but satisfactory.
 

It also depends on what level you wish to achieve.  High achievers may have a dog naturally strong with the motivational retrieve but if perfection is what they desire they will go to force regardless.  In the end I do believe most dogs need to see both black and white to achieve a perfect retrieve worthy of a high level of competition. 

I know of such a dog who's motivational retrieve is very nice, most club people would be totally happy with...but he's a bit of a clown and chews a bit.  Force was introduced to clean him up and screw it down for top competition.

BTW I love that clicker retrieve video...great dog, great training!....might be something for me to try next time:-)

I trained my dog exactly as shown in the clicker video.  Started with training the "hold" (and I used a dowel, never used a dumbbell until he could do the entire retrieve).  First he would hold it calm, then learned to take it, then take it and come to front, farther and farther away, then it was sitting on the ground with him platz or sit out ahead of me so he could pick it up and bring it, then he sat in heel position and went out and got it.  THEN I introduced the dumbbell.  I did not do any "drive building" FOR the dumbbell (OK I tried it once, it improved nothing and caused the dog to become more hectic and slightly chewy).  I also did the marks and rewards as the video shows.  We started with clicker and food, then transitioned to a verbal marker ("yes") and a dropped ball from the chin.  The ball is the highest value object to my dog.  THe entire retrieve behavior chain is just a bridge to get the ball.  Now that he is more advanced, he does all three retrieves before he gets the ball, but he understands every piece of the behavior (go out, take, carry, sit, hold, out, finish...) because it was trained piece by piece, and he knows he gets that ball at the end.  Like I said I never did the drive building to make the dumbbell itself a reward, never tugged with the dumbbell, and yet if I toss the dumbbell and restrain my dog he starts whining, bucking, and barking because he WANTS to retrieve and get the ball.  Yet he is correct, consistent (same speed out and back, can't stand when the dog bursts out and then trots back), and is not chewy (I HATE chewing, spent a LOT of time like months on training the correct hold behavior and have never had to fix chewing).

ETA:  My dog has always been a natural retriever, loves to fetch, good dock diver, etc, but I didn't expect that to carry over into formal retrieves.  When we started the formal retrieve it was from scratch (and likewise I didn't stop any of the other fun games and fetch we played because I thought it would mess up the formal retrieve).  When we play fetch I sometimes have two balls, or he sometimes won't out it, or will drop it prematurely but since the retrieve is something that was trained differently and addressed in a different frame of mind, the dog has not dropped the dumbbell or not outed the dumbbell as he might with a ball.

@GSDfan, good post

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just starting the retrieve at 3 years old.  super low levels on the e-collar.  i know this may start some controversy but that is what makes us all who we are.  this was way less confrontational than the pinch.  throw in some food reward there for zest.  the chair is a good restriction.  taken in my kitchen. 

joe