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by Louise M. Penery on 05 September 2010 - 23:09
many dogs that were entered didn't show or were pulled........wonder why?
Tyson, Yukon etc....
People often get a vet excuse after the bitework if they feel they will not place highly in the first ring. Ditto, the latter in the younger classes. Although I would love to go to a BSZS, I understand that it can be exhausting and that parking is often distant.. According to the website, 2000 dogs were expected to be entered.
Tyson, Yukon etc....
People often get a vet excuse after the bitework if they feel they will not place highly in the first ring. Ditto, the latter in the younger classes. Although I would love to go to a BSZS, I understand that it can be exhausting and that parking is often distant.. According to the website, 2000 dogs were expected to be entered.
by Mackenzie on 06 September 2010 - 06:09
To answer Abbey Normal's point about change it must be remembered that it takes time to make changes and nothing is overnight in breeding. It must also be remembered that the changes made by Hermann Martin were founded on his ideals over some twenty years. He was the Bundeszuchtwart for many years and judged the females at the Sieger Show and, during this period he was able him to lay the foundation for change before becoming President. Once he became President he then had control of the males and was able to select them to suit the breeding females that he had developed in previous years. It was then that change appeared to come more quickly and the result is the dogs that we see today.
Mackenzie
Mackenzie
by SitasMom on 06 September 2010 - 11:09
many of these top dogs didn't even do the bitework, they were no shows...
by Abby Normal on 06 September 2010 - 22:09
No-one disputes the effort that people have gone to to prepare their dogs for this event. Do you believe that all that effort does not earn them monetary rewards if they are successful? I think it was Preston (sorry Preston if I got this wrong) who stated once that the Sieger is one big market place. I agree with that evaluation, and often dogs are sold before they've even left the event. So I think anyone would have to acknowledge that money is at it's heart, it is big business.
My point is it is the SV ITSELF that has acknowledged problems and has pledged to address them, but my question stands - how can they when nothing changes and the same type and structure is promoted year after year. Many breeders follow the SV slavishly, and what was the very first ad I saw on this board following the Sieger? - Ober Bad Boll daughter for sale - and so it begins - again.
@ MacKenzie
Agreed, it takes generations, but if we never start we'll never get there. These 'issues' have been 'identified' over the past several years, and here we are, still at the same point - standing still.
My point is it is the SV ITSELF that has acknowledged problems and has pledged to address them, but my question stands - how can they when nothing changes and the same type and structure is promoted year after year. Many breeders follow the SV slavishly, and what was the very first ad I saw on this board following the Sieger? - Ober Bad Boll daughter for sale - and so it begins - again.
@ MacKenzie
Agreed, it takes generations, but if we never start we'll never get there. These 'issues' have been 'identified' over the past several years, and here we are, still at the same point - standing still.
by VonIsengard on 06 September 2010 - 23:09
The proof will always be in the progeny. Many fine VA dogs have fallen off the map after failing to produce well.
It is a breeder's decision to breed not necessarily the dogs place highest but those that represent the type that best matches a breeder's goal.
A shame to not see Yukon presented, but not surprising. A Mutz line dog, not overly extreme, with the ability to pass on good working ability, would have been a worthy Sieger.
It is a breeder's decision to breed not necessarily the dogs place highest but those that represent the type that best matches a breeder's goal.
A shame to not see Yukon presented, but not surprising. A Mutz line dog, not overly extreme, with the ability to pass on good working ability, would have been a worthy Sieger.
by Mackenzie on 07 September 2010 - 06:09
Abbey Normal, you are quite right to say that many issues have been identified. The problem is that there are now so many that it will take some time to fix and, therefore, it becomes a situation of what do we sacrifice in order to achieve positive change. Also, in Germany there is a polictical situation to overcome, however, I think that Herr Meyer has made a positive start and that given time he will bring things around for the better. In the last issue of the Zeitung he has an article addressing the question of soundness which, sadly, has been swept aside as irrevelent by those who favour the flying gait together with poor selection by breeders who have forgotton that we have a working breed that can be shown and not a show dog as the end product.
Most of the changes needed are in the hands of the breeders in their selection of partners for their females. Not every VA male will be a top producer but females can be as in the case of Otti v Trienzbachtal and Xandra v Wienerau who both produced three Siegerins from different litters. What was it about their breeding families that made them so productive? In trying to make change breeders have to consider the breeding familes on both sides and better assess what will come together for the betterment of the breed regardless of whether either, the male or female, are titled show dogs.
Mackenzie
Most of the changes needed are in the hands of the breeders in their selection of partners for their females. Not every VA male will be a top producer but females can be as in the case of Otti v Trienzbachtal and Xandra v Wienerau who both produced three Siegerins from different litters. What was it about their breeding families that made them so productive? In trying to make change breeders have to consider the breeding familes on both sides and better assess what will come together for the betterment of the breed regardless of whether either, the male or female, are titled show dogs.
Mackenzie
by Abby Normal on 07 September 2010 - 10:09
KCzaja
The breeders goal that you state should of course be the goal of all. Sad to say, that especially in some countries, the lure of adding the latest Sieger to the pedigree seems to be overwhelming - regardless of anything else. I would have loved to have seen a Mutz line dog as Sieger.
@ Mackenzie
You have put it in a nutshell. Not only a myriad of health problems to overcome and the very difficult decision of where to start, coupled with breeders who breed for only one thing whether it is flying gait or extreme drive on the working side. Add politics and money into the mix and I can see why there is no progress.
However, how can breeders be persuaded to make innovative pairings when the Sieger Shows entice them into reproducing just one type that shows it will succeed. Herr Meyer was the judge of the males, but still failed to give out an important message by his selection. To me, that is the biggest opportunity to encourage breeding to change, and it was lost.
The breeders goal that you state should of course be the goal of all. Sad to say, that especially in some countries, the lure of adding the latest Sieger to the pedigree seems to be overwhelming - regardless of anything else. I would have loved to have seen a Mutz line dog as Sieger.
@ Mackenzie
You have put it in a nutshell. Not only a myriad of health problems to overcome and the very difficult decision of where to start, coupled with breeders who breed for only one thing whether it is flying gait or extreme drive on the working side. Add politics and money into the mix and I can see why there is no progress.
However, how can breeders be persuaded to make innovative pairings when the Sieger Shows entice them into reproducing just one type that shows it will succeed. Herr Meyer was the judge of the males, but still failed to give out an important message by his selection. To me, that is the biggest opportunity to encourage breeding to change, and it was lost.
by Mackenzie on 07 September 2010 - 11:09
Abby Normal, I can understand your frustrations but I would refer you back to my point about Hermann Martin formulating his ideals over a period of some twenty years. The things that he did were quite insidious until he gained control of the males. It was only then the changes came quickly. In fairness to Herr Meyer he has only had the top job for a comparitively short time and we cannot expect overnight success from him when we consider the legacy that he has inherited. Throw into the mix the promotion of the Batu kennel when the breeder had the top job it is no wonder that the problems have been compounded upon. Add to that the number of very young males promoted to VA status, sometimes without prodgeny on the ground and before they are fully developed and we can see that it will take generations to sort out. We must give Herr Meyer more time.
We cannot place the lack of change solely on the male judge. We have to also look at the breeders and ask the question "what are they doing?" It is clearly set out for us from the moment that we first join the breed. Most of us read a book about the breed telling us what is desirable and what is not i.e. Cow hocks and unsoundness is not desirable in a working breed. In recent times breeders have ignored this and produced the fault in enough numbers that it has become accepted and ignored. Many breeders have also ignored other serious faults and health issues, why? Is it just lack of knowledge, poor selection, don't care, money etc, etc.
Before finding so many faults with the SV and it's system, which is better than no system at all, we should all examine ourselves and the part that we play in developing the future of this magnificent breed. Max v Stephanitz spelt out in his book all the wrong influences that we see today. Do we have as much foresight?
Mackenzie
We cannot place the lack of change solely on the male judge. We have to also look at the breeders and ask the question "what are they doing?" It is clearly set out for us from the moment that we first join the breed. Most of us read a book about the breed telling us what is desirable and what is not i.e. Cow hocks and unsoundness is not desirable in a working breed. In recent times breeders have ignored this and produced the fault in enough numbers that it has become accepted and ignored. Many breeders have also ignored other serious faults and health issues, why? Is it just lack of knowledge, poor selection, don't care, money etc, etc.
Before finding so many faults with the SV and it's system, which is better than no system at all, we should all examine ourselves and the part that we play in developing the future of this magnificent breed. Max v Stephanitz spelt out in his book all the wrong influences that we see today. Do we have as much foresight?
Mackenzie
by Videx on 07 September 2010 - 14:09
Many on this board do NOT even breed GSD - yet they formulate opinions on breeding from all too obvious ignorance. They deign to question and advise the SV - they make false accusations against individuals based on rumour and inuendo - they are simply ignorant "nutcases & idiots" - they are the most serious 'disease' afflicting our GSD breed.
by NO FEAR on 07 September 2010 - 16:09
Abbey
Please clarify ! What actualy do you see what is wrong with the construction & type promoted at the Sieger show ?
Please clarify ! What actualy do you see what is wrong with the construction & type promoted at the Sieger show ?
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