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by VomMarischal on 01 May 2010 - 16:05
Gee. My gynecologist knows NOTHING about GSDs. I'm switching to you, shri.
by gsm44 on 01 May 2010 - 19:05
Bazza,on the BCBS survey form for hocks there are 3 options: Long,short and cow hocked, my female got a tick against short is that the best of the 3?
by Louise M. Penery on 01 May 2010 - 20:05
(* if you ever took Latin, you'll know that carpus refers to the wrist, tarsus to the heel.)
The pastern exiist only in front and is comprized of he carpal joint and the metacarpal bones which extend to the philanges. In the horse these metaacarpal bones are fused and form the " canon bone".
The hock exists only in the rear and is comprised of the tibio-tarsal joint, the tarsus and the metatarsal bones extending to the phanges. In the dog, a short hock is prefered because it functions as a stronger fulcrum during motion.
The pastern exiist only in front and is comprized of he carpal joint and the metacarpal bones which extend to the philanges. In the horse these metaacarpal bones are fused and form the " canon bone".
The hock exists only in the rear and is comprised of the tibio-tarsal joint, the tarsus and the metatarsal bones extending to the phanges. In the dog, a short hock is prefered because it functions as a stronger fulcrum during motion.
by bazza on 02 May 2010 - 07:05
Thank you Shri for your comment, I think we all know the common name is hock, but my only reason for posting was to dispel the myth that " There is no such thing as rear pasterns".
Abuto, I need no lessons on anatomy seems some do thou.
Louise I think you should do a bit more research, are you and the rest who still claim there is no such thing, that DR Willis's statement in his book is wrong???
Have a look at APBT network site, Balance in the American Shepherd Show Dog site, or Boxers Around the World site, to name but a few who also refer to the rear pasterns. I have found several sites on all different breeds who use the correct term rear pasterns when describing the importance of length. Are these sites all wrong Louise, Abuto, et al??? However I will never take a user of a dog chat forums word OVER that of a man like Dr Malcolm Willis BSc PhD an expert in ANIMAL BREEDING AND GENETICS and author of GSD genetic books!!!
SO A SIMPLE QUESTION.......IS HE WRONG??
Abuto, I need no lessons on anatomy seems some do thou.
Louise I think you should do a bit more research, are you and the rest who still claim there is no such thing, that DR Willis's statement in his book is wrong???
Have a look at APBT network site, Balance in the American Shepherd Show Dog site, or Boxers Around the World site, to name but a few who also refer to the rear pasterns. I have found several sites on all different breeds who use the correct term rear pasterns when describing the importance of length. Are these sites all wrong Louise, Abuto, et al??? However I will never take a user of a dog chat forums word OVER that of a man like Dr Malcolm Willis BSc PhD an expert in ANIMAL BREEDING AND GENETICS and author of GSD genetic books!!!
SO A SIMPLE QUESTION.......IS HE WRONG??
by bazza on 02 May 2010 - 07:05
GSM44 yes short rear pasterns or hocks if you wish to call them such, is the best, as I'm sure you already know.
by gsm44 on 02 May 2010 - 11:05
Thanks for clearing that up Bazza, still a bit green at all this.
Abuto, thanks for posting that diagram.
Abuto, thanks for posting that diagram.
by beetree on 02 May 2010 - 13:05
I don't think it should be a matter of right or wrong. More likely a cultural language thing. Now we know what everyone means so it shouldn't be too big of a deal if hocks or rear pasterns are used on this board, to talk about the same bones they indicate on the dog. JMHO
by bazza on 02 May 2010 - 13:05
Beetree, you are correct of course, I for one do not care what anyone chooses to call them. As I said most people including myself use the term hock as that is what is most commonly used. I do however use the term rear pasterns, have done for almost 50 years, when commenting on dogs on this forum and in conversation with people who know that term. However on a recent comment I made a user replied to my comment by saying there was no such thing, which is incorrect. If everyone here would just look up the term they would find it used the world over, in every breed, so I do not believe it to be cultural language thing. I truly am not trying to prove right from wrong I am however trying to prove there is such a thing as the rear pastern, end of. Please just look it up, you may all just be surprised.
I do find it strange that the user who made the comment to me has not taken up my invite to join the debate here on the forum, maybe he has looked it up and found there IS such a thing as the rear pastern after all.
I do find it strange that the user who made the comment to me has not taken up my invite to join the debate here on the forum, maybe he has looked it up and found there IS such a thing as the rear pastern after all.
by pod on 02 May 2010 - 20:05
No doubt in my mind that Bazza is correct on this.... and I too think that the use of the term 'hock' for rear pasterns is a misuse of the word. The hock is a joint.
The UK standards use the term correctly thoughout - From the GSD standard - "The hocks are strong and firm. The rear pasterns are vertical"
And the FCI - "The hock joints are strong and firm. The metatarsus stands vertically under the hock joint"
The UK standards use the term correctly thoughout - From the GSD standard - "The hocks are strong and firm. The rear pasterns are vertical"
And the FCI - "The hock joints are strong and firm. The metatarsus stands vertically under the hock joint"
by apoArmani on 02 May 2010 - 21:05
pod, thanks for your input; you mention the UK use the term correctly so I would like to add that the GSD Breed Council - Breed Survey and I include a link for a sample breed survey report (from which I have also highlighted the areas of interest), and interestingly does not use "rear pasterns" anywhere as well as clearly spliting the two (pastern and hock) for the front and the rear respectively:
View from front
Upper arm angulation
Upper arm length correct
Shoulder correct
Front assembly
Feet
Pasterns
Nails
Upper Thigh
Lower Thigh
Hind Angulation
Hocks
Soundness
Firmness of Hocks
Soundness in Front
Firmness of Elbows
Firmness of Pasterns
http://www.videxgsd.com/PDF/malan2%20VIDEX%20WEBSITE.pdf
I have many German breed survey reports and of course the term "rear pastern" does not exist there or indeed the word pastern (there is no exact translation for the word).
View from front
Upper arm angulation
Upper arm length correct
Shoulder correct
Front assembly
Feet
Pasterns
Nails
Upper Thigh
Lower Thigh
Hind Angulation
Hocks
Soundness
Firmness of Hocks
Soundness in Front
Firmness of Elbows
Firmness of Pasterns
http://www.videxgsd.com/PDF/malan2%20VIDEX%20WEBSITE.pdf
I have many German breed survey reports and of course the term "rear pastern" does not exist there or indeed the word pastern (there is no exact translation for the word).
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