regarding "fixing" gsd's I pretty much agree with Jeff.

as for today's designer breeders being mentioned in the same breath as what Max envisioned, well I don't see any comparison.  One man had a vision and a plan, he implemented that plain and created the GSD that has created legends. 

Today we have a group in australia that had a vision and goal, have been working towards "creating" that breed that has predicatable offspring that is both hypoallergenic and a good guide dog.  They haven't yet succeeded. 

That in turn spawned thousands to buy this and that, put a cute name on it, and sell it.  Then the "good" breeders convince you not to buy anything other than an F1 generation (fill in the blank)-poo because those are the only ones that are half way predictable in their traits.  Nobody is trying to consilidate the traits they desire to create a "new" breed that produces consistent offspring.  They're trying to create puppies with cute names to make big bucks.

Now people that are trying to create something new, and really trying, I may not buy it yet, but I wouldn't put them in the same catagory.  From what i've seen, not many breeders have the balls, time, commitment or knowlege to try and "create" something new. and by balls, i mean the stuff that drives someone to make tough decisions regarding their breeding practices and to lay out goals and achieve them.

Interesting discussion.  I'm curious about one point... the assertion that cross-bred dogs are unpredictable past the first generation.  Can someone elaborate on this?  What is the scientific basis behind this?  Is it just a generalization?

Another few questions... is it size alone that prevents the GSD from excelling in Ring?  I've seen an 80 lb Mali that was still as quick as lightning desite his bulk.  Is this an anomaly?  Are size and speed always correlated?

Yvette

"I know that I have seen some GSD's lately with Mal characteristics phenotypically, and I do not like this. One of the things that I see in GSD's that I do not see in Mals is character. Mals are more me me me, where the GSD will work above his capabilities because you ask him to. I never want to see me me me in the GSD. I would love to see more character in the Mals. "

Yes, thank you, Jeff. You really shouldn't judge a GSD by Mal standards. Too many people think that just because their dog chases a ball it has "extreme" prey drive, and just because their dog growls at them for every little thing it's got "fight drive", and just because a GSD won't out and looks slow on the Schutzhund field it's a crapper. And too many people wouldn't know "power" and "intensity" if it hit them in the face.

Ok I'll bite...........

So lets say I have my ideal GSD. Say I inbreed that dog for three generations (father/daughter or vice versa) You can't consoildate and know exactly what the gene pool is, both goog and bad, without inbreeding. So say I am lucky enough to produce from this gene pool good temperment, good hips and elbows in 75% of the prodgeny.

Now say I find a Mal who is linebred on Jorie. Jorie was the 1992 Belgian Ring Champion who I know for a fact was 1/2 GSD. Belgian ring has the jumps, enviornmental stress, and judges grips very hard. So i breed this Mal to my inbred GSD.

Then I take that and breed to a French line GSD who is from generations of French and/or Mondio ring. Big jumps and enviormental stress. I breed several females to a great producer from these lines and breed the following progeny back to "pure" GSD of great quality, who are within the "standard".

Do you think I would improve the physical soundness and ability, and environmental stability of my breeding program?

Do you think I would not have animals who look like, act like, and produce GSD's?

Belschik von Eicken-Bruche-small, fast, hard hitting, GSD character, produced all of the above too

It seems most people who like Mals like them because they are potentially faster and more athletic than most GSDs. Well, there are GSDs like Belschik who have those traits. You don't need a Mal to have drives, there are lots of GSDs with more than enough drive these days. So adding in Mals adds nothing that you can't get by breeding the right type of GSD. The GSD is such a popular and varied breed that if you search hard enough, you'll always find what you're looking for. Even a non-shedding GSD-I have one of those! LOL

sorry for the font in the above post, couldn't figure out how to correct it

Yes Belschik was a very nice dog. small, fast, agile. The question I have is would he be able to physically do ring sport jumps throughout his career? I ask this because alot of the dogs I have seen looking at pedigrees were OFA fair or a-fast normal and who knows how many didn't pass. What about elbows?

I have seen several dogs from Belshick. They were fast and they were agile. They also carried aggression. the problem was it was nervy aggression. I have seen a very, very nice male that is two off of Belschik. He however was not small, not fast, and not agile. He was a bruiser.

>They were fast and they were agile. They also carried aggression. the problem was it was nervy aggression.

Sounds like a Mal