I dont know - Page 2

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by animules on 31 October 2007 - 13:10

I do hope you, your family, and the dogs are all okay. But what the heck was he doing with any amount, much less that large amount, of mercury?

by Silverbolt Prime on 31 October 2007 - 13:10

*raises a hand* Yet another one who played with Mercury. I survived it, and don't seem to have suffered ill from it.

I agree with Bob-O, the very nature of mercury would be hard for the little guys to lap up. The trouble with mercury is that its effects can be varied. Since it is a heavy metal, it's harder to process through the body. Keeping the kidneys / liver functioning will be essential. Cranberry juice is good for promoting kidney function. I've never heard of using beer or wine -- Abhay, I'd like to hear more about this, you've got me curious.

To illustrate the variable In the 1700 - 1800s, mercury was deliberately ingested to cure all manner of things. This 'wonderful' invention was a massive pill called a Thunderclapper. It was essentially mercury in a capsule, taken orally. Lewis of Lewis and Clark took the things daily for the same reason that people today take full body cleansers. They consumed levels far and above what is currently considered leathal exposure, and they did it daily.

Good luck and best wishes for all of you, especially with the EPA. You'll be in our thoughts and prayers.

- Silver

by Abhay on 31 October 2007 - 14:10

Silverbolt, beer, wine and other alcohols, have saved the lives of many dogs who have drank Antifreeze. The alcohol ties up the ethylene glycol, and other toxins so they don't precipitate into the kidneys.

In Shandra's post she states it is 12:30 am. She also states the Vet is closed and that she is flat broke. Under the circumstances, it sounded like her only options were to wait and do nothing until the Vet opened, or try to do something with what she might have on hand. I'm not there, so I don't know what her situation is. I was trying to think of something that might help ASAP.

by hodie on 31 October 2007 - 15:10

I do not have time to read this entire thread, but this is a very serious situation that needs immediate attention on several fronts. Much of the advice you receive over the internet is poor, at best. It is ABSOLUTELY imperative that you get the dogs and your children out of the house and call the local authorities. A major cleanup of this living space may well have to be done. It is almost impossible to remove mercury from carpeting and the entire house may need a major and specialized cleanup to be certain it can be occupied safely again. Only specialized equipment can determine the level of contamination. If you do not do this correctly, you are in for some serious long term consequences. As for toxicity, consider the following. Elemental mercury (Hg) in liquid form will easily vaporize at room temperature. It is well absorbed through inhalation. The lipid-solublility of elemental mercury allows it to easily pass into the bloodstream and red blood cells (RBCs). Once inhaled, elemental mercury it is mostly converted to a form of mercury that has similar properties to inorganic mercury. But small amounts of elemental mercury can persist and account for central nervous system toxicity. Elemental mercury is not well absorbed by the GI tract and when ingested is only mildly toxic when an exposure is small. But here you have no idea how much or whether any was ingested. Treatment would have been aimed at rapid elimination of the mercury ingested. None the less, you have an inhalation issue here as well for anyone in the rooms that have been contaminated. If there has been a significant exposure to the pups, there is a good chance that they will suffer serious consequences or die in time from the effects of this inhalation exposure since their bodies are less able to handle toxic materials. Therefore, if you want to try to save any of them, it is important that you find a veterinarian who specializes in emergency medicine or toxicology who can collaborate with other toxicologists to decide how and whether treatment is advisable. The authorities are going to also suggest you and your family be monitored closely. If you and your children have had any significant exposure, you too may well have some serious and long term health effects. This is a serious incident and I hope it is not too late to rectify it.

by Blitzen on 31 October 2007 - 15:10

I used to work with hazardous materials and as far as I can recall, mercury is only hazardous to humans if it is inhaled as a vapor or if it's ingested or absorbed over a period of time. This would of course depend on the quantity ingested initially. Unfortuantely the results of ingesting mercury may not show up for several months in humans. There may or may not be statistics available for animals that ingest mercury one time. I'd be surprised if any of the pups managed to swallow any of it, but if they did it may come out in the same form it entered not remaining inside the gut long enough to cause any ill effects. Just speculation, I don't know that for sure. I'd agree with Louise, induce vomiting when a dog eats anything that could cause a blockage or other harm. It's not appropriate for some poisons though, caustics for example, so it's a good idea to keep the number for the animal poison control hotline close by. Maybe Louise can recommend what would be needed to prepare an emergcny kit to use in the event a dog eats something they should not. Nothing worse that trying to drive around finding an open drug stor in the middle of the night when most things like this happen. That might even be a nice fund raiser for dog clubs?

The reportable quantity for a mercury spill is one pound which is not a whole lot of that material since it is very dense. This means if one spills more than one pound it must be reported to EPA and the clean up monitored by one of their agents. Mercury is usually suctioned or vaccumed into approved containers.

Having been in this businees for many years, I think too much is often made of hazardous materials and hazardous waste spills, but we must still conform with the law when an accident happens. Shandra's home owners policy should pay for this incident.

by Blitzen on 31 October 2007 - 16:10

Since Shandra has contacted EPA, I assume they will take charge now and evacuate and decon as necessary.

by MVF on 31 October 2007 - 17:10

This is a value judgment, but in my opinion you need to focus on your own health and the health of your family. Make sure everyone is being observed by medical professionals. Skin contact and breathing are both risky.

Second, these are the symptoms to look for in the pups. If you see them, you will probably have to euthanize:

1. severe discoloration of skin (watch mouth, gums, bellies).

2. itching, burning and pain

3. profuse sweating through foot pads

4. hair, tooth loss or claws falling out

Even if an truly exposed pup survives, there may be neurological consequences later. For example, the myelin sheath may be compromised. Many gsds have degenerative myelopathy, but this may hasten it.

A pup with little exposure may be fine. Merely being in the room with mercury id not necessarily a problem. This should give you some hope.

by Shandra on 31 October 2007 - 17:10

I appreciate the advice

Here is an update.

The EPA officer just called me and informed me that I am not allowed to go home, it has been taped off and a deputy is posted to prevent my return. I am not allowed to remove anything, clothes or animals. I cannot go make sure they have food and water, I cannot take them anywhere. My house will have to be cleaned by the EPA and HazMat crews at a cost of between 30-50 k before I can return to the home. There is a good chance that they will euthanize all of my dogs, I am contacting the director of the Zoonosis division for the state of texas and see if that can be prevented. EPA is contacting the school district that I drive for since I drove the bus this morning, I am not sure where it will go from there. This is a small town with no expertise in situations like this so they are conducting a blanket affect to cover their own ass.

The only reason I am broke at the moment is I just paid all the bills for home and business and it has been slow the last couple of weeks due to the cold front that came thru, This is not a usual circumstance with me, thats why I work 2 jobs.

Therese

by hodie on 31 October 2007 - 17:10

As Blitzen pointed out, the reportable quantity for a spill of elemental mercury is 1 pound. I think had you known what you were getting into, you could have gotten the dogs and your family out, but now it is in the hands of the authorities. EPA should be called in. They will call in a hazardous materials contractor and one can only hope that the spill can be cleaned up. It is not impossible that you may never be able to sell this house. The long term consequences of exposure to yourself and your dogs is unknown, but I think if you press the authorities there is NO justification in putting the dogs down at this point. They should be removed to a vet clinic or other place as soon as possible, bathed and monitored, but they pose absolutely no danger to anyone or any other animal. Insist on talking to the EPA officer in charge, and then if you get no where, insist that they call in the Centers for Disease Control to help prevent the dogs from being needlessly euthanized. The CDC can get in touch with appropriate advisors for the dogs to help figure out how to deal with this. This incident, though really sad for Therese, should be something everyone reading should take to heart. Whether you agree with the procedures involved or not, whether you like the laws of the land or not, this is a serious spill. Check your houses and with your children to make sure you do not have a bottle of mercury sitting around just for kicks and grins. I was a haz mat responder for many years and worked as well in consulting and in universities. I can tell you that if a single mercury filled thermometer broke we had a significant cleanup and rigorous testing and clearance protocols to follow. We were knowledgeable and in major cities. When things like this happen in smaller areas where no one has a clue, including the responders, it gets convoluted and much worse, very, very quickly. Hopefully if you can get an actual EPA authority involved some sense will prevail, but this will cost thousands and thousands of dollars to remedy. Good luck and I hope the dogs are not put down unless they are seriously ill.

by Shandra on 31 October 2007 - 18:10

Hodie, thank you so much for your words of wisdom. I have called the Animal Poison control and they are checking on things for me, She said absolutely the dogs should not be a danger of contamination but she is talking with others to make sure. She went thru the records to see if there was anything similar and all they have had are themometer incidence which when injested isnt really an issue because it is very small amounts and it is not organic? I dont know the first thing about any of this. All I know is I cannot go home, which I worked my butt off for, paid every payment myself for 10 years.....I have no clothing... these things are not really a big deal, they are replaceable, My Goldie isnt. Cold as it may sound, if given a choice to save only 1 it would be goldie, she has been with me thru alot....... I am not able to go home to check on them make sure they have food and water or anything. TG They are not crated. The outside dogs will be ok, the pups are divided off into the kitchen with a doggie door, but no way to get to water if theirs runs out, Goldie and skeeter are in the main house with water but no food. I over slept for work this morning and made a mad dash out the door without stopping.

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