If you had a Magic Wand.... - Page 19

It's funny how you all rail on training and yet completely dismiss the part where even dogs out of untitled parents in Europe could be worked/trained and end up somewhere. Not saying they'll be podium dogs, but they'll work. Just like the many in the United States that come from breeders that are randomly throwing dogs together with decent bloodlines and just happen to place them into a home where the person decides to work and train it. Dog ends up titling with a mediocre score at some mediocre club trial and so then you'd all consider that combination great producers?

Kennels that have a built reputation do this constantly...they have connections to trainers, who might not be the world's greatest, or they might be, but they know how to train dogs and get them to certain levels. Dismiss the training that is necessary for high level, then dismiss the training that goes into making police dogs and consistent "working dogs" from particular kennels. You can never remove the training from the equation of "how to make a great producer." Puppies have to go to homes where they will be trained and worked. Most of the time it boils down to not producing complete crap or nerved out dogs and someone, somewhere, can teach that dog to meet a minimum standard for some type of work. Trying to get to a higher standard...that takes a very special dog and a very special trainer. But the majority of what you're talking about...minimum standards, mediocre dogs. Nothing special, just a dog that will work...I can find you one of those in a few hours.

 

Dogs that don't win don't get bred to (especially in the United States) because no one ever hears about them. Winning is advertising. It's not that people don't care about the quality of the dog...it's that no one hears about the dog itself. Clubs are huge distances apart, it's impossible to go to all of them to find that one special dog that just isn't trained. Blaming people for running to podium dogs is wrong...they just don't have access to knowing about the dogs that aren't winning. Facebook and the internet have helped to a certain extent...but even then you'll only see what your friends have...the ability for those dogs to get out and into the public eye (especially in the United States) is very small.

BLACK M I agree very much with the last paragraph of your post

 

Maybe you get me wrong there are a lot not titled certified dogs who have proven producers in ther pedigree, genetics is much more important than all that flashy high podium dog trainers.

Quality genetics you can,t train, but  good worldclass trainers/team can make from a modarate
dog a podium dog thats the difference

 

 

So how long do we let someone breed as long as there are "quality producers" back in the pedigree? Majority of the crap dogs bred in the United States have the big name dogs you speak of in their pedigrees. Pretty much 95% of pedigreed dogs will go back to something big and have titles 4-5 generations back, if you go 6-7 probably 99% of them do (I'm talking WLish dogs). Somehow...those genetics disappear. It can't just all be based on paper.

 

BW I don,t saying titling is not necessary.....and I,m not talking about backyard breeders with not any knowledge

But a good breeder know his lines and do his homework and produce quality
not saying this breeders don,t do nothing with their dogs most of them have trained
some dogs in their pedigree or know some dogs personal and know what the lines  produce  , or have many years decoy experience

But there are also breeders who have all te titles in their dogs and produce not the best
quality and have less knowledge
 

 

Maybe dog breeders and dog trainers need minimum standards and titles so when the static dog genetics come into the picture there will be a tiered guide for a graded assessment of the genetic dog potential.

That would be one heck of Magic Wand! It would essentially be a way to rate the validity of the often heard pronouncement, "I like what I see".

😋

I get what you are saying…but from what I’ve seen, without dogs proving themselves generation after generation, those breeders slowly lose the quality they once had. Knowing your lines is one thing, but you still need them comparing themselves to the current stock. I’ve seen way too many breeders who people give the “excuse” to and they just don’t produce what they used to at some point. I’m not saying the dogs can’t work, but they’re not as good as they once were. Either they’ve fallen off, or the competition has caught up or passed them. Kennels in Europe have the ability to continually place dogs into proper situations, in the US they don’t…but we still give breeders that “know what they’re doing” a pass even when they haven’t proven anything in years or even decades. Each time that breeder gets a pass…dozens of others who don’t actually have that experience use the same reasoning to swindle others to believe they have the experience.

I don’t disagree that there are plenty of breeders that can breed excellent dogs without titling…the problem is finding those breeders for people not “in” the breed. The amount of misinformation, and the difficulty in finding any kind of verifiable information greatly increases when someone isn’t testing their stock in an accepted method.

For example…I’m reading a different forum where breeders who don’t do anything, produce dogs that can’t work, are being recommended to others by a bunch of people that have no idea what they’re talking about just because they’ve had a connection with those breeders, or known about them for a few years through the forum itself. Human nature takes over too much, lack of objectivity, we “like” certain people, and just approve of what they’re doing no matter what we might actually believe or preach about in regards to the breed.

I’ve seen certain people on this forum list off breeders that truthfully haven’t accomplished much in decades, but they’ve convinced someone that they know what they’re doing. I’ve seen plenty where there actually isn’t any real production to back up those claims…but most don’t look that far into the statements people make, if they sound smart, they think that they’re good. Way too often I’ve seen breeders say one thing…and do something completely different for the chase of profit. Do as I say, not as I do mentality.

well do you think toptrainers choose their pup by pedigree/podiumplacings of parents, or they choose them by level of food and balldrive, workability etc etc, to best fit their trainingsystem

I have several topsport trainers in multiple countries including german BSP level asking me to find them a good young dog, NOT ONE is asking for podiumparents, famous names or such, they all want certain traits that makes them trainable for points

if it was as simple as BW is claiming they can all just get a pup from the last champ

lol duke...I don't claim that at all. Not sure where you're getting that. Somehow though...you don't see podium dogs that don't have parents with titles. I'm not saying breed to champs, I'm saying I understand WHY people breed to them, be it right or wrong. But show me a champion that doesn't have a sire and dam with a title. Point is...they've proven themselves at some level, doesn't have to be high, but they've done it.

Who was the last champion dog you've provided a top level trainer?

Bav most dogs have titled parents because it is breedingrequirement,
and I will not give you list of clients, but guarantee you my friends and clients train BSP national and international level from various countries

funny you ask for so much but provide so little, you are even afraid to share your real name and dogs,curious to see where your "knowledge" on the topic comes from