Czech GSD's with bad hips - Page 19

I've read all the posts to this thread and heard all the reasons/excuses for not certifying breeding dogs. It still comes down to one simple question - exactly what  does any breeder have to lose by submitting hip xrays to OFA? The fee, that's it.  Don't trust OFA? Pay an accredited veterinary radiologist for an evalution. Most look for some sort of proof of a dog's working abilty or future working ablity, why the hesitation to show some proof that the dog does in fact have normal hips/elbows according to an expert? I don't get it.

Gustav, I wish I could find a Penn grad here in FL. I worked for 4 of them for many years and had the opportunity to study a bit under Dr. Riser. At that time he was working on palpating hips on young puppies to determine laxity. He thought that he could identify puppies that would develop HD.You probably remember when that theory rocked the dog world  along with mega doses of Vit C, keeping the puppy confined to a small crate so he sat on his butt 24/7 with the rear legs in abduction - like putting a spreader cast on a human baby born with hip  laxity. Riser and Bardens were the pioneers if I remember correctly. I saw the palpation done on anesthesized 4, 5 week old puppies some of which were never allowed to wake up if they palpated "too loose". It was not not a fun thing to watch. 2 friends actually put down puppies because of laxity. As it turned out it wasn't reliable - some of the pups with the "tightest" hips ended up with mild to moderated HD when xrayed as adults.  One always has to wonder what sort of hip conformation the ones that never woke up would have had.

I don't know anything about PennHip, was never interested because I wasn't gettng any HD in my litters anymore. It only took me 3 generations of selective breeding before every pup xrayed had normal hips. Part of my concern about PennHip goes back to the Riser days and the puppy palpation. I have some faith in it since Penn is involved, but it's something I'd really have to learn more about before I'd use it.

Not every breeder is going to make hips and elbows the first priority, other traits will be more important. We can argue til we are blue in the face who is right, who wrong. The only thing that bothers me when I hear statements like - hips aren't everything, working ability is more important  - is that some of those dogs will be placed as pets sleeping with their owners in a bed every night, not a kennel. If they end up having hip issues, it's a major tragedy for the family. These people don't shrug their shoulders, put the dog down, go get another or just send the dog back as so many here coldly suggest owners of dog with major health issues should do. Most don't return defective dogs like they are broken kitchen appliances. These owners are distraught and may very well never get another GSD for the rest of their lives. If repeating breedings that have produced HD problems or using dogs that produce more that the average cases of HD in order to produce dogs that will be marketed to the working dog world, it might be kinder to keep the resulting pets until they can be prelimed and then placed in pet homes.

Stll no answer - are hip/elbow certs mandatory in the Czech Republic in order to register a litter?

Blitzen stated from OFFA.org:
Progress in hip joint phenotype of dogs in the United States between the 1970's and early 1990's has been shown through results of a retrospective study using the OFA data base. This improvement was evident as an increase in the percentage of dogs classified as having excellent hip joint phenotype and a decrease in the percentage of dogs classified as having hip dysplasia (HD).  The increase in percentage of dogs classified as having excellent hip joint phenotype was greater for German Shepherd dogs, Golden Retrievers, Labrador Retrievers, and Rottweilers than for all dog breeds combined. In addition, the submission screening rate for these four breeds was higher than the screening rate for all dogs.

I repeat again and again and again......!!!!That is because breeders do not submit bad hips for evaluation! They submit only good hips.
That is why the percentage of none dysplastic dogs registered grows. 1+ 1 =2 
Do you submit obvilously dyspalctic hips to OFA? And who does? 

Blitzen said:
 If suitable documentation is not available, assume the worst until proven otherwise.
I agree 100% however  I maintain that in current state of affair the posting of the actual x rays on the public display is more suitable  then OFA. Or  if you insist it should be done parallel with OFA evaluation. Why OFA or no other registry( as far as I know)   dose not post  x rays which they evaluated?!!???.  Aren't you suspicious about that? And not that they are not just posting them but they are not available for viewing .  As matter of fact I was told  that OFA destroys the x rays after the evaluation.  WHY?!!! Aren't you curious. 

Blitzen to answer your question. In Czech after date I think of  7.11. 2011the dogs need to be officially evaluated in order for their litter to be registered. 

Hi Blitzen,

Agreed, your posts make a whole lot of sense and one can only tell that you are very experienced with this breed...

Definately, hip conformation and the overall health of the animal should be of primary and utmost importance...
Working ability and showing videos of how good Ex works OR Y works are all secondary...

I know of Hips as compulsory in the Czech Republic, Elbows i'm not too sure...

Hans, maybe you can clarify this for us...does the CMKU require Hips and Elbows before they register a litter...

Actually, I didn't say that, OFA did.

Hans, I just don't see the big deal with spending a little extra money to get hips and elbow ceritified by some accredited organization. It's sort of like Moses saying Dallas could have earned his Sch3 had he trialed him. If so why didn't he? Anyone can talk the talk.

 HEXE: The board-certified veterinary radiologist on staff at the OFA screens the radiographs for diagnostic quality.If it is not suitable for diagnostic quality (poor positioning, too light, too dark or image blurring from motion), it is returned to the referring veterinarian with a written request that it be repeated. An application number is assigned.

Radiographs of animals 24 months of age or older are independently evaluated by three randomly selected, board-certified veterinary radiologists from a pool of 20 to 25 consulting radiologists throughout the USA in private practice and academia.

Board certified radiologist.
That may be the theory. Howver  I have heard different from a vet student who claimed that the vet students do read and evaluate the hips. It had been some time since I have heard that thus situation may be different now.
Reading quality og x rays. 
Also I have seen many x rays being read on improperly positioned dog and from film of poor quality. The x ray must be really bad in order to be rejected for that reason by OFA. 
Also 20 -25 radiologists is a mess. In Czech for example is 1 vet asigned for group of breeds. Thus you have reasonable expectation that the x ray is red under same standard with the same eyes. 

 HEXE: The board-certified veterinary radiologist on staff at the OFA screens the radiographs for diagnostic quality.If it is not suitable for diagnostic quality (poor positioning, too light, too dark or image blurring from motion), it is returned to the referring veterinarian with a written request that it be repeated. An application number is assigned.

Radiographs of animals 24 months of age or older are independently evaluated by three randomly selected, board-certified veterinary radiologists from a pool of 20 to 25 consulting radiologists throughout the USA in private practice and academia.

Board certified radiologist.
That may be the theory. Howver  I have heard different from a vet student who claimed that the vet students do read and evaluate the hips. It had been some time since I have heard that thus situation may be different now.
Reading quality og x rays. 
Also I have seen many x rays being read on improperly positioned dog and from film of poor quality. The x ray must be really bad in order to be rejected for that reason by OFA. 
Also 20 -25 radiologists is a mess. In Czech for example is 1 vet asigned for group of breeds. Thus you have reasonable expectation that the x ray is red under same standard with the same eyes. 

aadilah, my experience with hips was not really breed specific. I didn't own a GSD  until 1994.

OK, let's just assume OFA is a screw up organiztion. Why not use a certifed vet radiologist, PennHip, the Czech scheme, or the SV then. What's wrong with them?