If you had a Magic Wand.... - Page 18

I have total respect for any trainer the put the work in with there dog I also love to c the bond between dog and handler grow . I have spent a lot of money on seminars over the last years with some of the best trainers in the world so I understand training weather sport of pp I would never disrespect a person for training there dog . There is a lot of dishonesty in ipo and I use ipo because that's the system people swear by and that's what I wont respect. So train your dog in any system u want but be honest to yourself and your dog have fun doing it and best of luck

Yogi, there is not only dishonesty in IPO, but in any other venues, too.
It´s our own fault, not the fault of the systems.
Without any "system" you are not able to compare.

For me it´s like school or apprenticeship, there are intelligent pupils, willing pupils, and there are lazy, dumb, unwilling, maybe stubborn pupils. Most of them are a combination of different traits - the best combination normally will achieve the best results, and later on they will be the most successful adults ( I know, there are exceptions, but exceptions are what they are called out of a reason - "exceptions" ).

The best dog doesn't go from club hero to mediocre at regional or national events...the best trained dog or best trainers occupy the justifying position that is often cited as proof of great dog! Such a false narrative that is sold to those that don't know any better.lol
At the end of the day what you breed consistently defines you,imo. Truly knowledgeable people KNOW who breeds or owns top dogs, because somebody NEEDS a title to validate in their mind a dog, doesn't invalidate the quality of someone's breeding program or dogs.
I am concerned about the breeding of top GS, not the training of podium dogs. With good genetic breeding, you can train this breed to do the things it was created to do, with faulty breeding practices the dog is incapable of performances that it was created for. Genetics is more important to me than training....and that is where I guess I see things different than some. They used to go hand in hand....not so much anymore whether titled or not.

read the last few pages and would say Gustav is spot on in all commands

BW you constantly mention the state the breed is on in USA and the need still to buy good dogs from Europe

The reason for that IMO is people who think like you,
I have been visiting the USA since 1987, I have been breeding showdogs, sportdogs and policedogs, and know breeders, owners and handlers in all scenes of the dogworld, I produced top winning and producing dogs and even multiple FCI worldchampions in two different breeds, su trust me, I do see the bigger picture

The bigger picture in both show and workingdogs is that the majority of breeders value Titles, ribbons and fame higher than the actual quality of the dog , and make your breedingchoises based on just that, where european breeders in general, look at quality first and titles later

back in the days there was a Top professional handler named Corky Vroom winning a lot and many people bred to the dogs he was showing
I allways told people as a truthfull joke, If you want a winner, dont breed Corkys dog, but hire Corky

today winning in IPO is all about the trainer and not to forget, the group around him, so important, lack of this group around you makes it almost impossible to get anywhere with your dog, if you look close you will see that all successes com frome same clubs and trainers/groups all the time in most countries, so ask yourself if they luckily have the best dogs all the time, or if their trainingskills might be the main factor
so I have big respect for these trainers because I know what enourmous time and effort go into getting a dog that far, and for me a worldchampionship is championship of trainers first and foremost, the dogs are their tools

Oh please, look at this dog. The breed creators would never have imagined this type of performance was even possible. The top dogs now are better than the top dogs ever in the history of the breed.

Anyone who is not irrational can see this shit is frikkin awe inspiring. Tell me exactly what is so shit about this dog and what work would he not be capable of success in.

 

Go ahead, anyone explain how this IPO performance represents the demise of the gsd....ridiculous.
 

It's unfortunate that the discussion boils down to the tried and true "winning dog is only good training and can't be a good dog." Working people don't want to hear about how their police dogs are just mediocre with just enough training to work the streets...but they feel the need to constantly demean the quality of dog on the national and world level as if they've ever been there. It's unfortunate that a good discussion came down to that. Sorry, extremely rarely is there a dog at the national level that doesn't have the quality or ability to be a real working dog. Sure there are dogs in sport that don't have the environmental nerve to survive on the street, but many do. Most handlers/trainers aren't going to deal with it just to score a bunch of points. Most sport dogs are still pets and they have to function outside the field. Sure...some of you probably know dogs that aren't so great which have scored well...same as every one of us can point out a "real working dog" failure (one happened very recently).

Duke...who are the FCI world champions you've produced?

United States will always be behind the 8 ball when it comes to breeding compared to Europe because most of the dogs we produce don't work. They aren't worked in sport or in someone's back yard. We don't know which of our dogs turn out well, which dogs produce good combinations because we don't have enough data. An American breeder is lucky to get half their dogs working in something, and even then it usually involves a very "big name" breeding which catches the eye of dedicated trainers. Quality...in the sense that you speak about it, is extremely hard to show/prove in the United States. Trust me...I wish more breeders did it the way you speak, the reason I "push" for title is that it will give me the data that I need and require people to train and show their dog. The way things stand...no one needs to do anything and can just claim working ability (usually due to titles in the pedigree) and sell their puppies for twice what they run in Europe.

Whoever said that a winning dog CANT be a good dog....when people have weak positions they resort to altering the words of others to strengthen their point. The point that I and Duke are making is that great dogs exist at club, regional, national and even backyards.....the dogs at the top of the podium exists because of exceptional trainers/training, AND may or may not be great. Is that so hard to comprehend?? And because the judging is based on evaluating the training, which will not pass through the sperm or eggs of the dog, then many not so great dogs with great training, will get undue influence on breed as they are ran to for breeding because novices and some who are limited in wisdom will run to them because of ribbons, trophies, and podiums. Nothing in what I said is absolute, but every year I see it increasing more and more.
Look, I am NOT against titling whatsoever, it provides knowledge! But it does not provide WISDOM which is needed to breed.
Knowledge is the possession of facts!; wisdom is the proper use and application of knowledge! Think about that and you can began to understand how WL and SL in Europe are both titled, but are almost diametrically opposites in functionality.....Everyone that has knowledge in this breed doesn't necessarily have wisdom for the breed.

bav, nowhere did I write that they cant be good dogs, I know a bunch that are real good dogs and won podium, that is not the question or the point, read again

the dogs I bred that are FCI show worldchampions ,

first one, and LOL her mother had no titles, and LOLLOL Im showing her on the pic

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/bouvier_des_flandres/dog.html?id=1441660-worldchlady-janis-bianca-vd-duca-vallei

second one, again both parents no famous winners or titles

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/bouvier_des_flandres/dog.html?id=648805-kaz-ebony-vd-duca-vallei--worldchampion

third is a portugese waterdog,
http://www.trimsalonannapaulowna.nl/index.php/over-ons/onze-honden/portugese-waterhond/84-articles/135-l-homme-ysatis-v-d-duca-vallei

 

Gustav and Duke make some very good points

Titles and podium don,t quarentee quality offspring

Clubs/decoys where you train, good handlers, team around them have a lot influence today ........to the podium dogs


Example In KNPV the most succesfull X malinois producers for quality offspring today have not any KNPV title
( they are KNPV trained but not any PH title) Berry II and  Kuno Roosen.

Also in KNPV there are a lot high quality producers females with not any title

All the respect for high podium trainers, but a good dog is a good producer not only
a 299 point dog at the WUSV IMO

For GSD in Holland kennel Blitse have some studs and quality producer females
with proven quality offspring in the KNPV some of them are not titled at all. offcourse with proven genetic bloodlines in the pedigree.

But customers today running to the high podium do with famous names because the puppies will sell much quicker and better  this is the sad part....

Better a proven stud/ female with no title in my kennel who produce quality , than a 299 dog that produce crap...........

Of course I respect anybody who titled and certified their dogs and spending so much time in it...
 

There are some  very good  GSD with the right genetics but with no any title

who never be used  I think this a a big loss for the breed.

 

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