Czech GSD's with bad hips - Page 18

So bottomline, there are a number of variables that will skew the data in favor of (or against) an individual dog, when an OFA result is presented. 

One of the variables is that the positioning of the dog is of prime importance and improper or imperfect positioning can result in a big difference in the "score"......so how good is this "score" ? 

The next variable is that it is not the same set of eyes (or pair or trio of eyes) who view the x-rays and determine the "score", but every x-ray could potentially be read by a bunch of different people, some of them even trainees, and thus the "score" becomes pretty much useless, if not for the wholesale havoc it can cause in the  way it can kill-off the breeding potential of a top-notch dog or bitch (and sheer ability to remove from the gene-pool, temperamental traits that are not readily found in other similar dogs, for eternity, and keep on progressively diluting the breed as we know it,  temperamentally and structurally).

In spite of the above, I believe OFA and its equivalents elsewhere have become "800 lb gorillas in the room" and a large majority of the buying public have started to rely heavily on the presented data and results, and thus from a marketing perspective, it might be a good idea for a breeder to get a good score in there, regardless of how useless it truly is from a breeding perspective. JMHO.

From the OFA website:

OFA's Handling Procedures

When a radiograph arrives at the OFA, the information on the radiograph is checked against information on the application. The age of the dog is calculated, and the submitted fee is recorded. The board-certified veterinary radiologist on staff at the OFA screens the radiographs for diagnostic quality. If it is not suitable for diagnostic quality (poor positioning, too light, too dark or image blurring from motion), it is returned to the referring veterinarian with a written request that it be repeated. An application number is assigned.

Radiographs of animals 24 months of age or older are independently evaluated by three randomly selected, board-certified veterinary radiologists from a pool of 20 to 25 consulting radiologists throughout the USA in private practice and academia. Each radiologist evaluates the animal's hip status considering the breed, sex, and age. There are approximately 9 different anatomic areas of the hip that are evaluated.


It's a pretty serious accusation to so much as infer that OFA films are being read by ANYONE other than board-certified veterinary radiologists, because that amounts to accusing the organization of fraudulent activity on their part. While I have no doubt that at least some films are viewed by students and veterinary technicians--because how else does one learn to read a radiograph if one doesn't look at thousands of them and become familiar with what the varying degrees of normal look like?--the RATING of the hips and elbows is NEVER done by those individuals. There's a licensing issue at issue were a board-certified veterinary radiologist to sign off as having read and rated films that they hadn't done themselves, and had pawned off on a subordinate such as a student or vet tech.
 

What I read there has been improvement in the GSD for example, less sever cases like HD D and E in sweden. However, breeding only A or B hips togheter is not enough to get really good improvement anymore, most gain by that has probably already been obtained, hence index for HD/ED is now used or on the way, or many already realize you must look further than the parents. I hardly think it´s a coincidence that some GSD breeders have less than 10% HD faults even if they have breed more than just a few litters, and others have 40-50% HD faults.

I suppose even if there would be 50% errors in a certain registry it still would mean you had some clue about the relatives to a certian breeedingpair if let´s say 80% of the dogs in a litter is screened compared to only the parents. It´s always been a hot debate about the borderline cases, breeders getting uppset because a good dog can´t be used becuase a slight HD remark, it´s esier to get good reults in other countries, sedative used etc. I guess the question is what is more important, solid hips or getting a nice hiprating on a dog that is a border line case, what helps the breed most? 

Some info about HD/ED and breedings,
http://pub.epsilon.slu.se/2395/2/malm_s_101104.pdf

Slam, Vonissk, & Blitzen:  


[Hey, there's quite a lot of useful info in this thred;
must bookmark it or something ! - cheers, people,]

Some really useful info coming through, much appreciated...

Analogy - A football game cannot have a referee and a player as the same person...

In this case, a Breeder (player) and the OFA/SV/CMKU as the (referee)...

A quick thought:

The OFA can issue each and every VET with a CARD for hips/elbows records.
The VET agrees to comply with certain rules and regulations as set by the OFA and to send a copy of the CARD to the OFA.
The VET agrees to send all x-ray CARD's at least once a month OR perhaps once every 3 months to the OFA.


Guidelines for the CARD ; Dogs full name, Tattoo OR Chip number, colour of dog, breed of dog, any other distinguished markings eg. very dark sable OR small white marking on the chest...
A checkbox for a few other things like has the VET done x-rays in the past, is the VET familiar with the positioning, was a sedative  used, etc. The VET's opinion of the x-ray result...
Obviously, the final graded result will be done by the OFA...when they receive the actual films OR CD's...

Yes, not all clients will want the grade to be done by the OFA as there will be additional charges to have the hips/elbows officially graded and for the results to be stamped on the original pedigrees...The biggest expense is usually the x-ray charges at the VET, the OFA doesn't charge that much for the grading and stamp...Prices were posted earlier in this Forum by a kind poster...

The OFA can then build a database of ALL dogs that were x-rayed...even though they don't have ALL films/CD's...but can say VET Graded as a reference...and the info won't be used as authentic as compared to those that are OFA stamped but at least an idea of the hips/elbows are available on their database...
You may also get some clients, probably some breeders that will pay the Vet a bit extra to give a better rating because they don't want the films/CD's to be sent through...corruption will be there...that's on their conscience...but it can and will  hopefully be minimized...

Like I said, just a thought from my side.........

As one poster asked, I sometimes use Pennhipp, especially when I want to know the DI of my dog's hips. My vet is also a Univ of Penn grad that has extensive experience with Pennhipp colleagues and associates. We have had extensive conversations about hips as I have imported his 4 German Shepherds for him. I think there is great value in the Pennhipp program......but maybe I will rethink my position after this thread........just kidding...big lol.
i will say I see things a lot like Johann, but then again I am a big fan of Swedens approach to the breed. The Czech Republic often grades hips more stringently than SV....just sayin! We are really only discussing the surface of the hip issue.....and I think most have made good contributions to this thread.

One more thing about hips, they have to marry with what's between the ears in overall objectivity. Someone posted about not wanting to breed dogs with excellent hips and structure and temperament unfit for application to work/service. There is validity in that reasoning.....the concept of functional hips is also something that many don't understand. It goes much further than judging whether a dog can walk or is crippled....but for people who don't strenuously stress their dogs in work, it's difficult to perceive the ramifications. The good thing about this discussion is there are many sides to it and it shows people's commitment to trying to keep the breed strong.

I was a policedog handler and all the dogs we selected were x rayed. Being an end of the line user,I don't really care about lines etc I only look at the dog that is in front of me.This being said I must also add that if you don't know the breeder and havn't had a chance to see the dog yourself then you must trust certain things.Xrays are one amongst others. Of course x rays of the parents are no guarantee that all progeny will have good hips but it is a hell of a lot bettter than not doing anything and taking the word of the breeder. It is a bit like saying Schutzhund stock is not good because the sport is watered down.
What is the other option? Taking the word of a breeder that doesn't do any work with their dogs but tells you that their dogs will defend you with their lives?
Sutzhund may be a sport and may be watered down,but if you know dogs and you know what to look for, you might see some really good ones!
It comes down to putting more chances on your side and not just believing what you read on the breeder's site.
But that is just my opinion.
Mike

This thread eventually turned into a good debate about hips despite it's initial and insidious begginings to snipe a reputable kennel and it's affiliates. I agree that a database of all hip and elbow scores needs to be kept for the sake and future of the breed, however, I also believe that if these databases are to play a role in the future of the breed then an incorruptable and uniform standard needs to be established to ensure that all hip and elbow scores entered therein are accurate. If that isn't the case (like now for the most part) then these mediums are of no use to breeders, like it's been said over and over again in this thread, Hip and Elbow Dysplasia are one with the breed and good hip scores aren't a guarantee of HD/ED free pups! Breeders should know how to read x rays! All the good breeders that I know of don't breed peds and hip scores but actually breeds magnificent dogs and they've the proof why they're superior compared to others. This is why they recieve such backlash.

KNOWLEDGE & EXPERIENCE IS INVALUABLE & IT IS VERY MUCH APPRECIATED. I urgue all good breed to not let any of the jealous competition get you down. Jirkova Dvora produces some exceptional dogs by the way.

@Mike....I fully agree with you....that's why I have xrayed every dog that I have owned in past thirty years. @ mighty Zeus....common sense is still common sense....good post!