Breed Improvement Suggestions for the UK GSD Breed Council - Page 18

'Can a animal with any of the following stand the rigours of being trained and then tested in the sch schedule

Displastic Hips/Elbows

EPI

Nervousness

Limited PREY, DEFENCE, FOOD, and  ENERGY drives'

In response to Reasons question, at least regarding EPI, I would say NO, I would not subject my dog to any vigorous training now, he has literally aged years since he became ill in March this year.

Regarding hips, thats a questions I cant answer, having had a bitch with high score and working her hard at the time with no ill effects.  Vet said that the muscle she had helped keep the hip sockets in place, but I dont know, perhaps she had a high pain threshold but she never ever showed she was in any pain and was always eager to work.  But some cant work with even a lowish score. 

Reason, I think (hope) we all know that without the correct temperament, you do not have a German Shepherd Dog!  However, compromise is the road we must take if we're to stand any chance of any changes getting off the ground.

People aught to be encouraged (some need to be seriously persuaded) to get behind any improvement scheme... not "told off" or "put down" because their opinion differs from yours or because there's something that they would like to have included that YOU can't see the point of!  Nobody "told you off" for straying from this thread, when you reminisced with Bancroft about the abilities of Prescotia Canto & Gayville's Asti etc. 

Didn't you "say" to Bancroft, that you believed that the BC would not listen to you?  Have "we" changed your mind?  Perhaps then, you may be persuaded to chill out a little, be a little less rigid and a little more open to the idea that we're looking at a start, not a "finished product" (the wheels of change grind slowly) and we want everyone to be enthusiastic about it. This is essentially a long term project; that's not the ideal but it's realistic.

Misbeed

They are fair points but i have been here before with Breed surveys and working tests that if not are mandatory they are largley ignored, maybe we need a more formal mandatory (to gain a higher value pedigree)

If we the plebs dont set the bar high enough the heirachy WILL dilute the suggestions and very soon any scheme will be largely ignored and we will be having this same discussion for the next 20 years

We used to have these discussions at match nights and shows 20 years ago but nothing got done because it was not in the best either financial or ego interests of the heirachy, who are incidentally still at the helm of most of the major organisations today.

I an trying not to be offensive and controversial but it is very frustrating when the answres are already out there we just need them to be properly applied

Estweyn - I think that is what Reason is trying to say.  That EPI dose not have a health test available but that if GSD's had to performance related test before they could be bred from along with all available health test etc then these dogs would not pass therefore would become unavailable for breeding. 

I have today been formalising my thoughts on this thread and once I am happy with it will be sending it to the BC.  Will they listen, I hope so.

Reason - try not to get frustrated.  I know we seem to be going around in circles and I had forgotten about the working test that happened I think twice but I could be wrong but certainly no more that twice.  What a shame.

Jess

Reason, I think a great many of us have been "here" before but we've never had the KC in such a vulnerable position before.  (What happened to match nights... they were great fun?)

I totally agree that whatever test is decided upon should be mandatory!  I'd go a little further and say that no dog can attain CH status without it.  However, if we make the mountain too high, no-one will try to climb it.  Health tests aside; the working test/s have to be REAL... so we do kind of agree do we not? 

We can all help each other... I certainly need help understanding some of the German working stuff... even after looking at the site DP told me about.  I don't know anyone with sheep!!

Can probably help you on sch questions but no chance on HGH its not widely popular (as it is not mandatory)

Yes the working test do HAVE to be real, the one at the moment is largely real and controlled (sometimes subject to abuse)

But if its not mandatory it will not be applied

Ah light shines and illuminates, thanks JJ.

However (damp squid) at what age would this performance related test take place, many EPI dogs do not develop it until turned three, so many would get thro the net, again its back to breeders taking responibility and declaring the condition in their breeding animals.

Reason,  sorry... the sheep was a joke!

Are there any competitions/working tests going on down south?  It'll probably make more sense if I can see everything and pick the brains of whoever's near.  I've only ever seen a bit of "manwork" at the Sieger show and I found that quite off putting... not enough control IMO.

Reason 

You said the breed already has a specifically designed character test, I presume you refer to the Sch tests which we all know already exist but once again I must reiterate that we still do not have enough trainers / helpers and facilities in place yet for this to be used extensively and only those who are already fully embraced by the Sch Sport will argue otherwise. Please believe me when I say I sincerely wish this was not the case as nothing would be greater than donning hat and coat and heading down to the Local Clubhouse any day or night of the week for a spot of dog training and socialisation but for in the UK this is still a pipedream and until the dream becomes reality (where ALL have equal access to training and testing facilities) you cannot introduce this as 'THEE' testing criteria (it just would not be cricket and there is nothing I hate more than the I'm alright Jack brigade insisting on what we should do). 

Apart from that, there are some who are totally against the Protection phase of the test and despite what the Sch enthusiasts think, I do not believe we must ever go down the route of forcing people to train their dogs in this if they do not want to. There are many forms of Courage the bite test is one but it is not the be and end all , indeed some can and do argue that the set criteria used in training and practice of the bite test is so repetitive that in the end its behaviour towards the bite test can becomes more habit forming than courage testing. If this was not so, there would be no need for people to practice with 'helpers' prior to a 'test'. 

Over the last 25yrs enough time has been wasted between the show and Sch working people arguing the toss regarding what training and tests should be used to assess the charac / temps of our Shepherds and the only place all this argueing has got us is absolutely nowhere. Unlike Germany the UK has never been geared up for total committment to Schutzhund and although we are now heading in the right direction we are still many more years away from achieving the necessary utopia. Sadly whenever one faction tries to force their way onto another conflict inevitably follows. Stubborness and arrogance that one way is the best and only way will always be self defeating, why is it always so difficult for people to accept the value of compromise ? If some 25yrs ago we had all being able to reach some form of compromise instead of dictating to each other, I truly believe we could possibly have reached our training utopia by now. Using one set of baby steps at a time is the only way forward, we all know the saying Rome wasnt built in a day, it is in the building that we are achieving, those who expect it to be built overnight will always be in the planning stages.

So Reason I totally agree with your suggestion of a two tier registration system but this must not be linked to the KC's Accredited Breeder Scheme which I think is a hypocritical farse and just another KC money making scheme.  It would make more sense if breeders who use all the right schemes were recognised by paying less for their registrations rather than having to pay more for the priviledge.  

continued

Reason, you also mentioned  one year in June a sort of  Working day was held at Weston Park where only 9 turned up, I cant say I remember it, was it well advertised? However it is possibly not prudent to base the national interest in something from the lack of attendance of a one off event at one geographic venue, there could have been many reasons for the poor turnout, other than the lack of interest. However I for one would very much appreciate if you told us what tests or things this day entailed,  as since you obviously thought the methods used to be an excellent way of assessing the charac & temps of the dogs in attendance and these could be the exact type of tests I was advocating should be done in Open View on a regular basis at all our Major championship shows and that any dog not participating in or failing these tests should not be allowed to take top honours. 

I know you would prefer the tests should be those used in Sch Trials but in the hope of introducing something positive more quickly , so with that in mind can we all please just agree to compromise to start with and work forward from there.

Missbeeb,

Yes I am on the BC but its Constitution does not allow for any individual to have a voice or make changes, well at least not this individual. However , if you put your ideas forward and submit them to your club, (if you are a member of our club WYGSD we would be only too pleased to discuss your improvement schemes in committee with a view to putting them forward to the BC on your behalf.) 

Anyway I wish all of you Good Luck with any Breed Improvement Scheme you are able to introduce and if you can manage to get it to be a Mandatory Requirement, more power to your elbow. I hope you are young and enthusiastic enough to keep pushing and that you dont get too disheartened too soon.

Best Regards

Sue B