Czech GSD's with bad hips - Page 17

The biggest problem with the so called "poor data" is that the breeders whose dogs won't pass won't submit the X-rays.  This also goes along with owners who don't submit X-rays.  I agree with Susie and Blitzen and many others who make very valid points.  It becomes a slippery slope when breeders don't submit X-rays, don't work their dogs, don't (can't or won't) title their dogs but proclaim their dogs to be breed worthy.  This is what happened to the American Show line GSD and look at hip results and temperament in many, not all of those dogs.  Geez, I can name big AKC Am SL breeders who would knowingly breed dysplastic dogs and never submit X rays.  Why would they do that?  Because it was not a requirement to show or campaign your dog in the AKC world.  A dysplastic dog that could run around a show ring with a nice gait could become a "champion."   The only way we can get accurate information is if breeders and owners OFA their dogs.  To state the system is flawed is certainly not the answer. We are trying to move away from that way of thinking and many AM SL breeders have and the breed benefits. 

Blitzen asked earlier in this thread "Why would anyone but a rank novice buy a GSD puppy from parents without CERTIFIED normal hips and elbows as the minimum?"   Well, because the vast majority of people buying puppies are rank novices who rely on the "breeders word" that the hips are good and the health is good.  I think many breeders rely on this and certainly take advantage of it.  If more novice puppy buyers went to the OFA website or SV and checked and then asked the breeder about their dogs; things may change.  I suspect more dogs would be OFA'd and some dogs would be removed from breeding programs when people catch on.  Once puppy buyers start researching and demanding that the sire and dam are OFA'd breeders will fall in line and the data will be better.  I think most people with any knowledge or experience are not buying dogs from breeders that breed unproven dogs with out OFA / SV Hips and elbows certifications.    Let the buyer beware!  I would never consider a dog from a breeder that doesn't at the very minimum OFA their dogs. Not submitting X-rays would be a huge red flag for me and I would start looking elsewhere. 

JMO FWIW
 

Breeding two dogs with good hips  is obviously better than breeding two with lesser hips, I guess this is already proven. The next step is to look further on siblings etc to get even better results, also this is nothing new and also are done by many, at least in countries where a large number of dogs are x-rayed, sweden for example. It´s true that reading x-rays are not an exact science for various reasons. On the other hand, if the system in US is so unrealiable that you better trust that the breeder is more skilled in that matter then the supposed experts then I guess you also need more luck to avoid HD/ED if you as a puppybuyer don´t have a clue how the HD/ED situation is in relatives and previous litters. This is common sense I guess and not so much to debate, or?

Like I said earlier, that's why I never bred personally for the public. I am old school, I X-ray all my dogs and know what they are. There are plenty of breeders out there for those of you that need OFA to get a puppy from. When I refer somebody to a breeder I make sure the breeder has hip certs because I know this is what many of you need to see. But my personal breedings go primarily to those that trust me as a breeder. Again, nobody is knocking what any of you are doing, but if you are implying that a breeder like me is hurting the breed, I wonder why so many people reach out to me for advice. It just doesn't make sense, I will say this....there are many many breeders out there I would never buy a dog from....so I understand somebody not wanting mine. Lets all agree that hip certs are what makes the best breeders...everyone happy?. 

Hans:
   Apologize if I misquoted you in anyway. All I am saying is that getting X-rays done (OFA) is a good practice for impartial documentation and research purposes. OFA data (national registries, eg Finland, Czech, SV etc) may be flawed, but most of it is likely reasonably accurate. If the positioning of the hips is good, the data should be generally reliable.

Your other point that hip Xrays (OFA) have not reduced the rate of HD, because HD is widely present in the breed. While HD may not be eliminated, by proper choice of dog/bitches the incidence can be reduced. With my limited knowledge of czech dogs, I can say that breeding to Klara z PS in the past resulted in hip problems, yet another dog Fatyma z PS according to Jinopo did not result in any hip problems over an 8 year breeding period. And the only way to study this retrospectively is, if someone took X-rays and submitted them for an impartial evaluation recognizing the caveats of OFA certification.

I am not saying that OFA is necessary for experienced breeders, but it does help the average Joe on the street in making a buy decision.

I'll refine it  . 46 years of OFA certification, and more or less years in German  SV, Sweden, Holland, Switzerland, Czech, GB..... certification   and generally no better hips in sight anywhere.  Thus what it is all that effort of certification  and spent money worth .Nothing except it makes money to someone.  If someone can make OFA or other system work to usable system and show me results, then I will listen with all I got. But I am still waiting and looking. In mean time I'll stick to what I know  and gives me good hips record and I will OFA dogs only because people want to see it on the peds.  

Is hip and elbow certification mandatory in the Czech Republic in order to register a litter as it is in Germany?

Paying more attention to the hip status of siblings and close relatives and eliminating those dogs and lines that seem to produce more than the expected percentage of HD would definitely help reduce the incidence overall. Not using normals from mostly dysplastic litters, not using normals with moderately to severely dysplastic siblings or second degree realtives, and not using dogs that have produced severe HD when bred to 2 or more different mates would help too. Other breeds have done it, why not this one? OFA offers in depth pedigree studies with the use of verticle pedigrees. If one doesn't submit xrays to the OFA it leaves big gaps in many pedigrees.

Blitzen 

I have been reading all of these posts and it is very interesting and informative reading.
An observation.. No one has mentioned PennHip. Years ago there was heavy debate about the Penn Hip but I stopped paying attention so I dont know where that issue ended up.
Is Penn Hip comparable to OFA or other forms of certifying hips?

From the OFFA.ORG website: the highlighting was done by me.

OFA Hip Dysplasia Guidelines for Breeders

Breeders and the OFA

Progress in hip joint phenotype of dogs in the United States between the 1970's and early 1990's has been shown through results of a retrospective study using the OFA data base. This improvement was evident as an increase in the percentage of dogs classified as having excellent hip joint phenotype and a decrease in the percentage of dogs classified as having hip dysplasia (HD). The increase in percentage of dogs classified as having excellent hip joint phenotype was greater for German Shepherd dogs, Golden Retrievers, Labrador Retrievers, and Rottweilers than for all dog breeds combined. In addition, the submission screening rate for these four breeds was higher than the screening rate for all dogs. Within these four breeds, the improvement was greatest for Rottweilers, which also had the highest screening rate.


Overall, low screening rates for breeds found in this study offer some insight into the problems involved with reducing the incidence of HD. The typical dog breeder is involved in breeding dogs for about five years. Thus, informed, experienced breeders are continually replaced with uninformed, inexperienced breeders who may not be as aware of the problems associated with HD or of the importance of participating in a screening program. In addition, many breeders choose which dogs they breed on the basis of the hip phenotype of individual dogs without knowledge of the phenotype of related dogs or previous offspring. It can be very difficult to get hip information on siblings and previous offspring due to the overall low number of dogs radiographed in a given litter (most dogs in a litter end up in pet homes). This is the slowest method of reducing the incidence of an undesirable trait or increasing the incidence of a desirable trait. The use of preliminary radiographs as early as 4 months of age can be used by breeders to add valuable information on the hip status of dogs they choose to use in a breeding program.

What can breeders do?

Hip dysplasia appears to be perpetuated by breeder imposed breeding practices, but when breeders and their breed clubs recognize HD as a problem and establish reduction of HD as a priority, improvement of the hip status can be accomplished without jeopardizing other desirable traits. Prospective buyers should check pedigrees and/or verify health issues with the breeder. If suitable documentation is not available, assume the worst until proven otherwise.

Do not ignore the dog with a fair hip evaluation. The dog is still within normal limits. For example; a dog with fair hips but with a strong hip background and over 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a good breeding prospect. A dog with excellent hips, but with a weak family background and less than 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a poor breeding prospect.

OFA's Recommended Breeding Principals
• Breed normals to normals
•Breed normals with normal ancestry
•Breed normals from litters (brothers/sisters) with a low incidence of HD
•Select a sire that produces a low incidence of HD
•Replace dogs with dogs that are better than the breed average