If you had a Magic Wand.... - Page 16

So explain how the SL dogs pass IPO( and they are the majority of the breed) and finding one that can work is the EXCEPTION!!! ARE THEY(breeders of SL)  gaming the system?, as you relate to BYB or people who don't title, or is the test itself that weak? You can't have it both ways Bavarian. The same disease you crow about; exists in your house with the majority of the dogs(SL), plain and simple.

And one last thing Bav, you talk about BYB and making money based on really false pretentions......well what is worse than the marketing and sale of 5000 to 7500 hundred dollars for puppies based on the marketing of the titles that the breeders sell novices, leading them to believe that the title  makes the dog representative of what it should. If I had a nickel for every person that thought their dog could work or do well at Sch club because the breeder showed them all the titles the parents and subsequent ancestors have.....is that fraudulent marketing??? Are they who are  making ungodly money on these pups that won't work ( mostly) and are just as much PETS as the BYB you always lambast; but have the titles that the breeders use to lure folks in!????.....reputable?
When I see you give equal attention to this as you do non titled breeders, you will have credibility with me.

My house? I don't own SL...and I'm openly admitting that there is an issue with breeding in the United States, and even with IPO the issue is that the minimum standard to pass is low. I've been completely open about a new test...other people just assumed I was speaking about IPO. I mentioned IPO because people said it's too easy...yet no one titles in it…kind of interesting right? I mentioned that harder tests won’t ever be enough either…mention KNPV, PDA, SDA, or whatever and someone out there will have an issue with what it tests and how it’s also possible to get around and doesn’t test for whatever they test in their back yard. When even an “easy test” is too much for people to do…it’s comical that you “real working people” expect them to jump on board with a harder test…but yeah, it’s nice when your actual testing system is secret and no one actually knows what it is, all you have to do is make claims about how much better it is than sport for whatever reason you come up with.

Just step back, everyone knows better than everyone else, everyone is testing their dogs harder than everyone else…yet the breed is still where it is. We’re still importing dogs from Europe, and human nature is all the same…the only thing they have on us is what I’ve been talking about this whole time, but ignore that and keep railing about the issues with minimum testing.

Also...I can't argue when the only thing you can bring up is an extreme example. Sorry, $5000-$7500 isn't the norm, it's far from it, but stick with it. Let me know how many nickles you're owed for all the $5000+ puppies you've ever heard of. Those people are terrible...but they're a drop in the bucket compared to the BYBs that are claiming their dogs are working quality and you know it. I know you focus a lot of your arguments on SL dogs, and I don't think they're worth anywhere near the money they go for either, but the market won't change unless something is implemented (it never will be). Even the SL breeders titling their dogs (or at least breeding titled dogs) are a minority of the overall breeding pool.

First, BW, I apologize for saying your credibility as you have credibility with me, but rather I meant your narrative.
Also, in Germany 75% of GS ARE SL and the pups are ALL out of titled dogs. I use Germany because that is a mass example of titled dogs. So I'm not talking exceptions when I speak of pups from titled parents who are pets.

And I constantly use SL because they are titled, and that seems to be a demarcation point for you between BYB and reputable breeder,so my point is that both countries primarily are breeding pet GS these days.....no more no less.....titles or no titles. There are a minority of  breeders in both countries that are still breeding for high workability and titles isn't the determining point, but rather the integrity/knowledge of the breeder.

Thats all I'm saying....there is blame in both camps and cleaning up the untitled breeders will do nothing to stop proliferation of pet breeding.

"We really have to get off the thinking of "if everyone was like me"...
"Hund, I attribute them to you because ..."

Actually it is more the other way around. All I have done is point out that sometimes people have other/more complex reasons than you keep INSISTING, and therefore ask you not to lump everybody into your almost constant "bucket of disapproval"; I have never said the cases I have talked about made up more than a minority of people. I have not even 'defended' them - I just baulk at the way you are so sure you are right that you over-generalise ALL THE BLOODY TIME with never ANY concession that sometimes people do not all think the way you do, or act the way you think they do. Do you ever read your posts back before pressing 'Send' ?

You could make the same points by writing 'most' / 'a majority' etc, it would not dilute your point to lose the attitude about people who you often don't know any more about on a personal basis than you accuse me of.

Gustav said succinctly what I have been trying to say and failing.

I was not trying to be permissive of pet breeding or dismissive of the work that goes into titling- just saying that it does not fix the major problem as I see it.

My biggest issue right now is the profit that less than superb breeders are able to get…it’s not so much as they’re breeding, it’s that they’re able to make their dogs out to seem as good or better than titled dogs or even dogs out of “real working parents.” It’s the fact that talk becomes more important than the actual ability of the dogs on the field or in the streets. There’s excuses for everything and most people accept them as legitimate reasons instead of looking at them as a sales tactic or just talk. Arbitrary proof will never work. We accept the breeding that someone we like/respect and has had decades of experience does when there are no titles attached to the dogs, and yet we’ll call out someone we don’t like or doesn’t have that experience for doing the same breeding. We approve breedings/matches on internet forums without any back up of why, or any proof of the parents or puppies being able to work. We ignore the role a trainer or a personal connection has to do in the success of the puppies in question. We cover up real reasons why dogs are placed in certain homes, or maybe just refuse to admit that it has less to do with the dogs and more to do with who we know.

I’m not calling out anyone in particular, we all do it. We make statements to prove our points knowing that there is another side to the story. We know that our statements will get us future business or win us some favor with a potential future customer/client. There is a huge information gap, and even those claiming to be great people and trying to be helpful…consciously or subconsciously continue to keep people in the dark and keep the gap. Too much profit to be made out there to truly be honest with people.

 

Hund...keep excepting those "more complex" reasons. Everyone has them. Enjoy believing they're always truth. I can list off hundreds of them for you if you'd like. Doesn't make me a better breeder or dog person because I can slip you a good one liner you accept because it pulls at your heart strings. Objectivity...you lack it. You're probably a very trusting person, not unlike 95% of the dog owning population, nothing wrong with it, but it makes you the prime target for subpar breeders.

Gustav, that´s not fair, and I guess you know it.

What is better, an IPO rating, even when barely passed, or nothing at all?
The dog that passed IPO can´t work? Maybe not, but at least it was able to pass IPO - a lot of dogs are not able to do so. We are talking about the minimum, not the maximum requirements right now.
For me a dog that isn´t able to pass IPO isn´t worth a second thought - everything else? You need to know, and you need to care.

$ 5.000 puppies out of "titled parents" are fraud, but this price structure only shows the ignorance of potential puppy buyers outside of Europe.

$ 5.000 for untitled green dogs who are able to bark and bite is fraud, too, ( no out, no retrieve, no attack - Jesus, I could sell dogs ) but people are willing to pay for it. Every real trainer knows it becomes interesting as soon as there is some pressure involved...

The newest (?) sales pitch - no more regular sleeve, but a hidden sleeve or, even better, a dog, able to bite into a leg! Again, no out, no pressure, just some training and fun for the dog...

There is a reason why we (Europe ) don´t pay much for a working breed puppy ( € 600 - € 1.000 ) - we KNOW even the best pedigrees are not always able to create the best dogs, shit happens, not only health tests have to be okay, but the dog has to show at least minimal working ability ( IPO1 / breed survey - shit, I forgot BH and AD ...), but who cares?
Sure even we don´t need to follow SV rules, but in that case later puppies sell for less than € 300, most often given away for free. No quick buck to make.

For me an unproven ( working wise ), not health tested dog, no matter if the dog gets AKC pedigrees or not ( AKC doesn´t ask for health, DNA, or working abilities, ironically not even for proper structure ) is the same as our € 0 - € 300 puppies without pedigrees, sorry, but we are talking about a working dog breed.

Now you will tell me that there are honest people able to breed good working dogs without any proof ( once again, I don´t care if it´s IPO, Ring, Mondio, or anything else ) - sure there are some people able to do so, but they are a unessential minority, they are not able to change the status quo of the breed, and, most importantly, they can´t even proof that they are better than others...how shall potential interests know the difference? There is no proof...

The average German Shepherd Dog buyer outside of Europe wants to own a dog looking like a German Shepherd Dog but behaving like a Golden Retriever. These owners don´t want to spend their time at training clubs, and they don´t want to spend 2 or 3 hours/day entertaining their dogs, cause otherwise the dogs may start to become either destructive or a liability. They want an easy going pet dog.
The next group wants a dog willing to bark at and bite everything that´s moving. Week nerved dogs are great for them - easy to breed, easy to promote...

The "good" breeders ( caring for temperament, working ability, health, and conformation ) have to learn the hard lesson that potential buyers don´t care about all those traits, but are willing to pay the same money ( or even more ) for untested, untrained, but also AKC registered dogs.

The very few people who understand the original traits of our breed ( and are willing to act accordingly ) are not able to change the mindset of the vast majority - I really admire everybody willing to spend his time and money into our breed - but the dogs they produce are not suitable for the masses - no real pets, no real monsters...simply good dogs, not worth a dime in the mindset of the average customer...

It´s way easier to import cheap titled dogs, not to question the quality of the titles, and breed them to untitled homebred broodbitches - the next level: to import pregnant bitches from Europe - titled or untitled, no DNA, but with "fancy" European pedigrees.

It´s depressing, sorry

Yeah, you believe that of me, BW, if it means you don't have to think about what I said about your manner of communicating. No skin off my nose. I guess I knew you'd change tack to avoid criticism, just as you have before when I (and others) have pointed out how your youthful arrogance hacks a lot of members right off.

If no one bought the crap, no one would produce it. Buyers make it too easy for people.

No one breeding "the right way" is making much money at it (I mean, it's not a viable living comparable to earning potential of a 4yr or greater education) if you consider you're keeping the dogs (feeding, medical, minimum- training is over and above) and especially if you keep at least some of your retirees. Unless you're stacking wire cages and importing pregnant dogs on the cheap and feeding total junk, there is a ton of money per month that goes into the PROPER care of a small breeding program. Now, if you're a scumbag buying cheap pregnant dogs, whelping the pups, then dumping the females before they become a drain, feeding Ol' Roy and getting $1000-$1500/pup, yeah, I guess you could be making more than you'd make at Walmart, but honestly, I still see the big issue along the lines of what Gustav said- even the "system" is failing, as evidenced by GSL dogs being largely put into pet homes and never heard from again.