Definition of Civil Drive for Police/P. Protection Dogs - Page 16

Hard : ability of a dog not to give up.
Description of "hard" in more detail:
Hard is a dog with strong fight drive and courage who does not give up and with  increasing negative challenge he increases his counter challenge.
( Definition of "fight drive" for purpose of this definition: ability of a dog to bring fight to his opponent. From "A" to "B")
( Definition of "courage" for purpose of this definition: ability  to overcome fear.)
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

To me hardness can mean either 1) high threshold to pain stimulus, or 2) emotionally unaffected by corrections from the handler.  The thresholds of either instance are further raised when the dog is put "in drive".  Hardness is in my opinion NOT encompassing of courage or fight drive, but does work in conjuction with those qualities.  I do however see hardness as potentially counterproductive to the tractability of the dog.  And a hard dog also equipped with higher threshold to stimulate any of it's "drives" would additionally be a terrible waste.

Courage and fight drive assist in the ability to withstand, or persist through pain or correction, while hardness itself is simply the absence of ability to perceive the pressures of pain and/or correction.

To add to those very good definitions; I see hardness as the ability to recover from a negative experience.  It is the dog's resilience to bounce back from a negative experience and not be adversely affected or come out of drive.  Increasing drive can increase resiliency and ability to handle increasing amounts of negative stimulus. 

A function of the level of hardness in a dog is the ability to handle corrections or a negative stimulus (i.e. serious pressure in agitation work) and stay in drive.  A hard dog will be able to work through these experiences and stay on task, seemingly unaffected or return to drive very quickly.  Later on the stress may show as fatigue, but not not while working or on task.  I often see this with the Police dogs after a long apprehension or a stressful training day. 

I do not link hardness solely to courage, I've seen plenty of stubborn dogs that have sufficient hardness.  There are many drives that will increase a dog's "hardness,"  not just fight drive.  Think of what some males dogs will withstand to get to a female in heat.  They have increased "sex drive" which increases their hardness; or their ability to withstand pain or pressure to satisfy their drive. 

Prey drive can also increase a dogs ability to cope with stress or "hardness."  An example would be a beagle, hunting a rabbit or a dog working for a toy.  I link it to the dog's desire to satisfy a drive and the ability to handle increasing amounts of pressure to satisfy the drive.

JMO,

Jim

This should probably be a new thread. 

Darryl what you describe is what I call numbscullness. :)
You are looking at it as a function  of dog vs handler relationship. I look at it as a function of dog vs source of aggression toward dog or K9 team  interaction.
Your definition of 1)" high pain threshold to stimulus" is in my book  just that; "high pain trash hold"; that is what I would call it. And 2) which I would somewhat relate to in obedience  "emotionally unaffected by corrections from the handler"  I would call numb but  not hard.

This  is interesting since we have 2 totally different definition. No wonder 2 dog trainers have hard time to understand each other.:)
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

 my view of hardness is more or less like daryll discribes , but you have also hard dogs that have an emotional response towards the handler , on a correction , but these are not my favorites

what hans discribes  is however an important quality , but I wouldnot refer to it as hard  , dont know the right word in english ,
I had a dog some 20 years ago that was mostly  civil , but after a period of training ,  under normal circumstances bit the sleeve , but with increasing pressure/threat  from the helper , he would go over or under the sleeve ,saw the sleeve as a shield if you will ,  other than that he was social and never argued my commands

time  after he passed away , I realized how great a dog he was

hans  , this dog , in his first time he saw a helper  with a sleeve , didnot move an inch , after the helper pressured  him offering the sleeve  he bit him in the upperleg ,the day after , a workingjudge who heard about this came and tested him on the full suit and stick , still untrained , the harder the judge attacked him , the harder he fought him , I could get $$ that day , but didnot sell him
 this dog , among others is one of the reasons I was disagreeing with you on learned behaviour

max , when you say it used to be so simple  , before drives were introduced

do you think of it as a bad thing that there are many new insites in dogs and dogtraining over the years

Duke you say : "...the harder the judge attacked him , the harder he fought him."
OK thus  that was a hard dog:)!
 Yes this type of a hardness  is inherited. 
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com