Who says competitive WL GSDs can't have excellent conformation - Page 16

I think I can come at this from a different angle that better expresses what I am trying to say.

From a purely physical, external stand point what jobs in todays world would be outside the abilities of a  V w/l dog, that completes an AD and a real Sch. proofing. And I an talking physically only, which is what this thread seemed to point to when it started.

Whether or not the dog is suited mentally is an entirely different matter and is not determined by the dogs structure, good, bad or indifferent.

Rik

Rik,
Ideally, what you are seeking is good. (Though I would say that the agility and quickness of the shorter coupled dogs of the past were sounder physically). But the problem is we DONT see an abundance of V structure/great working dogs anymore. So the genepool is very small, and this will lead to bottlenecking . To me a solid balanced dog being the criteria for V allows the genepool to stay open and the physical structure to translate into a great utility dog. once the meter starts emphasizing certain physical aspects and the balance goes out of wack, then we see the slide in other areas. I think you have to move back to structure like Marko, Frei, Bernd, Held, Mutz, to have the true type that is pleasing to the eye, structurally correct, and able to perform as a utility dog in any venue. This is just my humble opinion and crusade, does not mean its gospel at all.

 @Ibrahim-you wrote,"SL dogs of today are much better in regards to front and rear angulation, chest, topline etc"

Better in what way? Why is the angulation, topline, etc better today than when the breed was formally established?

@Rik, who said, "From a purely physical, external stand point what jobs in todays world would be outside the abilities of a  V w/l dog, that completes an AD and a real Sch. proofing."

I absolutely concede exceptions to the rule, but a dog who has been bred for anything other than work is not going to be as strong in the work as a dog who has been bred expressly to work. That the exception still pops up after all these years of breeding for black and red frogs is to me a positive thing, and proof that the breed can be reclaimed from its basement status as a working breed.
Furthermore, the SchH test does not prepare a dog for a job, not through what is trained for or from the resulting gene pool that is still deemed breedworthy despite its (SchH's) dumbing down.

"And I an talking physically only, which is what this thread seemed to point to when it started."

But that's just it. It is not his body that makes him work.

"Whether or not the dog is suited mentally is an entirely different matter and is not determined by the dogs structure, good, bad or indifferent."

My point exactly. So tell me again why a breeder should strive for V conformation?

Most of my favorite dogs and favorite "type" of dog (SL or WL) place in the mid to low Vs or high SGs at large shows.

I think many of the W/L 's actualy have better conformation that the S/L's purly because they are not  exaggerated or have excessive angles and long weak hocks we have plenty of W/L that have KK1 for life and also have the full on working ability
I hope and pray that the W/L folk are not going to get too absorbed into the conformation of the breed that they end up diluting the working ability, we have witnessed this in the 70s to today

Rik or Gustav... can you please explain the description "short coupled"? This was critizised on my then 9 mo old male in the showring. However, nobody I asked afterward could really explain what the judge ment by it (and the judge was busy with the other classes)

VP rated, pics at 13 mo old




my bitch, who can guess her rating? was VP as puppy. And yes, it was raining cats and dogs at that show. Rik, do you remember?...LOL

yea, I remember. It never stopped and I had no rain gear. Good day for me and my dog though

As for your dog and guessing, hard to do from a pic, she has very good gait and structure (shoulder opening very good and better than many s/l I have seen), so I'm going to guess you were pleased with the rating.

If a qualified judge mentioned "short coupled", he is talking of the loin area basically and that it could have a little more length.  Maybe more simple to say, the back could be longer.

Best, hope to get back up that way again if I get the right dog. Very good show.

Rik

hi Steph, my comments should be prefaced by that my experience in breeding was Am. s/l, not w/l or German s/l and I would not presume to tell people how to do something I have not done.

But, since you and I seem to be saying much the same in different ways, I will give you my view. Breeding for certain traits is the same whether for dogs or rabbits. I make a list of things I think my dog needs and what I want her to have.

Doing this, one will find in time that the priorities closest to the top of that list will end up the end of their leash.

If I were to breed w/l for example. Rating would never be at the top or even second on my list.

First would be health issues, h/e, "hey, can I see where your dog took a dump", any other health certifications, things that are going to affect the quality of life of the dog and me as an owner.

Second would be the actual performance of the dog (and progeny if available).

third would be, what areas can this dog help or not help my bitch and what I am looking achieve.

then I would start to consider things such as rating, but after all, A "G" is "Good".  So at this point, why should someone wishing to improve their idea of structure not consider a "V" if the other priorities on their list have been met.

best, and just call me,

Windy Rik

Well, I have been sitting around here with a few of my buds, the Weiser boys and I have a few things I wish to say.

I like the GSD, I like w/l, s/l/ and sport/l, there are even some Am. s/l that I like. I like many people I meet in the GSD world. I like to associate with them, drink beer with them and hear there views and opinions. I like many more things in life than I dislike.

I like to hear from Preston and history of GSD. I like to hear from Gustav and a life time in actually working the GSD. I like to hear an learn from slamduc, who says that he does not accept a dog who "stages". This is very valuable information for someone who wishes to learn.  I like to hear from people like johan who have success in S&R, from people who have success in the sport ring, from people who have success in the show ring.

I like to hear from anyone who has any success in any endeavor with the GSD. It all adds to my knowledge to a breed that I have spent many years with and still want to learn more of.

What I do not like to hear is those who must quote "Max" to validate their opinion. From those who attack every dissenting opinion other than their own.

Max's first goal for the GSD was that it remain a working dog. I agree with this. If in the future you wish to quote this to stifle any other or opposing discussion of the GSD, then I will ask you to show proof of your compliance. Do you consistently supply GSD to the working market. I defer. Does you job involve the evaluating and selection of the GSD for actual work, I defer.

Are you just offering an opinion because you bought a certain "type", read a book, cruised the "net", do not agree with the SV for no other reason than you do not agree and cannot offer why.

If there is a clearly stated first goal for the GSD, who of any intelligence will also dispute that there will also be valid second, third and fourth goals.

If your goal is to breed working dogs and supply them to a working market, then pursue it. S/l and sport/l ( and those who pursue it) does not affect this. Do what you think is correct.

Why do you waste your time trying to educate others (in things you do not accomplish with a GSD) who can only offer the job to the GSD as companion or  training partner.

Why do you wish to stifle any discussion of the GSD that you do not agree with. It can all be educational in the breed.

Windy Rik

Windy Rik, it is you who is stifling discussion by trying to shut those of us up who do not meet your so called standards.  
This is a discussion board and we don't need your approval to have an opinion.

  I  have shown in the ring  (GSL,) and I have attended schutzhund, now am doing PP.

That being said, that has no bearing on my opinion of what good conformation is.  I know what good conformation is.  In fact, I dare say, anyone who is not associated with the GSD knows what good conformation is. You folks are so used to looking at poor conformation you wouldn't know good conformation if it hit you in the face.

My race horses have to have good conformation or they interfere when they pace, or trot. 

Anyone with 20/20 vision can see what a normal dog looks like, and walks like.  Look at wolves, do they look like your GSD?

Frankly, I don't give a rats patooie what your dogs look like, but don't tell me because some judge says it is V, that is has excellent conformation.  Maybe in your eyes after ten beer.

Maybe I'll go have ten beer and take another look!