2010 USA Sieger Show, Lake Geneva WI. - Page 16

I'm not saying the work wasn't better than in past years. Many grips were shallow and many dogs were unconvincing in "bark" and hold, but it was promising to see more dogs pass. I found myself thinking often, "ok, not great, not awful, just ok". Which is a step in the right direction from the "omg are you kidding me?!" that has gone through my head at previous events.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the stick hits, either. The helperwork was very consistent, which was also great to see.  I was thrilled to see the judge chiding handlers for exciting their dogs before the long bite and I can't say I've ever seen a judge put lines out on the field before.

My seat was not distant at all, I had a great view, my description is from where I heard addtional sound coming from, away from the field. Sounded a lot like whip cracks and dogs being fired up. Now if anyone was between the building and the street and can verify that there were NO dogs being warmed up and want to set me straight, please feel free to correct me. I would very much like to be mistaken.

All in all, a step up. If we can see this improvement each year think where we can be in ten years.

It's strange, virtually all of the comments about the Sieger Show are about bite work. What you all seem to be forgetting is that the Sieger Show or as the Germans call it Hauptzuchtsiegerschau is about conformation. It is not the Bundesiegerprufung. The performance championship. And even the Bundessiegerprufung is not simply about bite work. Most championships are not won or lost in Part C but in obedience.

A German Shepherd Dog was not bred to be a bite machine. It was bred for intelligence and the ability to do many things. At GSD sieger shows we require all dogs in the working class to do a defense against the attack on handler and the courage test or long grip. It is a qualification for entry into the show ring where conformation will be judged. And this is what everyone who is moaning is losing sight of. It is not schutzhund trial. Perhaps we should make the dogs do the retrieve over the wall, and then you might moan the wall is no longer verticle like in the old days.

The German Shepherd Dog was created as a herding dog, then used by the Berlin Police as a tracking, scenting dog, then by the Army of the Second Reich as a messenger dog and a red cross dog. Then it was found that it could be a seeing eye dog. Then an avalanche rescue dog. Then in the WWII by the Nazis as a concentration camp and attack dog...

Today, the GSD is still used as a herding dog, and in Europe a seeing eye dog, a therapy dog, a search and rescue dog, as well as a police dog, a military dog, and let us not forget a family companion.

But back to the Sieger Show. It is, I repeat a conformation show and that is what we should all be interested in here. Of course, we do not want dogs that run away from the helper or that defend weakly. But we also we do not need dogs which can finish in the top 10 in the nationals. The sport people tend to forget that the GSD is supposed to be an all rounder, not just an animal that bites like a grizzly bear. Dogs that are used in the military are different dogs from those that are family companions or even all rounders.

The schutzhund prufung was created as a BREED TOOL to insure that all breeding stock had intelligence and working ability. When schutzhund became a sport, then like all sports extreme performance has become necessary to succeed. But don't think for a moment that the Bundessieger top 10 are anymore what Stefanitz had in mind then the VAs from the Siegershow.

At the nationals or the Bundessieger no one is all het up or endlesslying discussing conformation. Why is it then that at a conformation breed show, everyone is so concerned that the protection work is not the equal of the great working dogs in the nationals or bundessieger.

I repeat, we do not want coward dogs or weak dogs anymore than we want gunshy dogs in the show ring. But the standard of protection work at a breed show or survey should be different because it has a different purpose, it is merely a qualifier of some minimally acceptable standard showing the dog can work in a workmanlike way. If all you are interested is bite work, then you do not really have the interests of the GSD at heart, you want something else.
 

 
A very well written post. Also a very authentic and correct post that certainly reveals you as a breeder with a long track record in the GSD area. All of your points are 100% correct except for one thing.

Your post ASSUMES that all those dog in Sieger shows around the world EARNED their Schutzhund 3 titles HONESTLY in the first place.

The Schutzhund title IS INDEED A BREED TEST WHEN IT IS USED FOR TESTING!!! Not when it is used a piece of paper to be purchased for a sum.

The reason no one talks about the conformation of working dogs in the BSP, Nationals or the WUSV is because those dogs are not on the field with their handlers waving a piece of paper that they purchased that say they are V or VA. The handlers of those dogs are not being deceitful about the structure of their dogs. They are standing there and allowing their performance to state what or who they are.

The reason everyone gleefully and sometimes even cruelly poke fun at the showline dogs is because of the fundamental deceit that lies behind this.

So once this fundamental deceipt is resolved then surely everything else that you say is automatically true.

Until then it is as they say--- When you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.

------ Rob Shane

Very Well Said Rob!!!!

What some people seem to forget is that there are RULES on how the Sieger Show performance test is to be judged. The judge who evaluates the performance test should follow those rules. From the accounts of people who actually attended, sounds like this year,  the rules were followed. The rules state, per USA : "The judge will evaluate the gripwork as it is described in USA’s Schutzhund Rule Book, “The dog should counter the attack securely and energetically in stopping the attack by the helper.” A lack of self-confidence in the gripwork shall be evaluated as “sufficient"” in courage."

Evaluation of the Performance Test

1. Dogs that do not demonstrate a correct performance test cannot receive the rating of Excellent-Select (VA).
2. Dogs that continue to bump or re-grip after the "out" will be placed at the end of whatever conformation rating they would achieve.
3. Dogs that do not perform the free heeling exercise within three (3) attempts, or dogs that do not perform the "out" exercise, or dogs that receive the evaluation of “sufficient” or “insufficient” cannot continue in the competition of the show. No rating is given.

Folks can argue that the sieger show is just a conformation show. Well, if you want it to be just a conformation show, and you do not want people to discuss the performance portion of the show, then submit something to USA to have the performance portion of the show removed. Otherwise, hopefully, the rules of how the performance test is judged will continue to weed out the dogs that do not have what it takes to be judged by the rules. If the judging of the performance test at the sieger show is the kick in the arse people need to get out and actually train their dogs than YeeFreakinHaw!!! 

~Dee Clark

P.S.  Phil, can't wait to see the videos.

To all the Armchair Quarterbacks -- Did you enter your dog(s) in the competition?    If not, why?   I asked this question much further up on this Thread, but got no responses.  

Just watching this all "play out," it is very revealing how some people view the German Shepherd Dog and, yet, claim to be following Max's vision.   IMO, too many are actually "perverting" the magnificent GSD.   Also the comments reveal the distrust, backstabbing, and "sour grapes" that is very pervasive in the "Dog/Schutzhund World."    You reap what you sow. 

Bite/Bite/Bite -- that is all some can talk about.   Please stop destroying the GSD.   Thank you.

I can't even begin to explain how important the Performance Test is in evaluating the temperament of the dog.  Those of you who make excuses for poor work or bring up the fact that you don't want or care about the grip work, don't truly understand it's purpose.  This would take volumes to explain and I'm attempting to make it back up there shortly to see some friend's dogs compete.

 Just a note:

The wall should be vertical!!!

 I am currently competing in the sieger show with a working line dog, V Gento vom Banholz, SchH3.  I can affirm that from my perspective all the dogs received real stick hits and the helper work was very good and consistent.  Nathaniel Rogue judged fairly and enforced the healing rule and stopped obvious pumping up of dogs.  This is my first time at a Sieger show so I cant comment on improvement from previous years, but compared to all the regional breed surveys I have witnessed, the show dogs on average did much better than I expected with several that appeared as if they would have made fine club level SchH dogs.

As far as the post about stick hits from behind the building, I can definitely affirm that dogs were being worked very close to the ring.  I was waiting in line to take my dog onto the field, approx 10 feet from the entrance, and there was helper work going on immediately behind me.  So close, in fact, that I had to physically restrain my dog and when the helper ran away from the dog he almost bumped into me and my dog.  All this was obviously acceptable by the powers that be because it was unable to be missed.  

Just my opinions and observations.  I have no desire to debate the merits of any of these dogs and wish all the competitors well.  

Thanks for the confirmation of that, Jody. In my opinion this should not be allowed. A dog that cannot go out on the field, fresh (mind they even get scheduled practices the day prior!) is not much of a working dog at all.

It is of course a conformation event event- for the total dog. In your lovely history you failed to mention who the originator of the schutzhund sport was- and why. The bitework is not simply about a dog "biting", it is about courage, drive, trainability, and strength of character- something every breedworthy GSD must possess.

Maggie dear- please excuse me, I did not have anything to show this year, I certainly have shown in the wroking class before with a H.O.T. dog that did quite well in the conformation AND the work, and she and I were complimented thusly on it by the decoys. Sorry I don't crank dogs out like a factory so I can have new dogs to show every year then retire them to become puppy factories.

I see there are some newer posters here so I will make it clear that I love showline dogs, I will defend their working ability tirelessly, but I have no tolerance for weak work.

KC --

Sorry I don't crank dogs out like a factory so I can have new dogs to show every year then retire them to become puppy factories.

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Well, that is precisely the type of "talk" that I referenced in my post above..  

Why do people feel compelled to "get that dig in" instead of saying "congratulations on your / your dog's fine effort and/or win."     Is that really so hard to say?