If you had a Magic Wand.... - Page 15

BW, I just wish you would stop attributing those sort of remarks to me; I do not HAVE a breeding programme, I am not a breeder; and nowhere have I ever claimed that any dog I have owned or managed was the bee's knees, or a good breeding prospect, on ONE incidence. I am sure others who actually READ what I post will back me on that.

Yogi, IPO is able to tell you a lot about a dog, there are significant differences.
Is it the ultimate test? For sure not, but it´s a beginning, and I really don´t care if it´s IPO, Mondio, Ring, or anything else. The USA are not restricted to SV or FCI, you could do better, develop your own rules, but in reality the vast majority of breeders isn´t interested in any rules, be it even mandatory HD/ED x-rays or DNA. A mandatory test for working abilities? No chance.

Policedogs are a different chapter - at least over here police gets the dogs we are not able to sell to rich oversea owners... unstable, over the top, nervy, sharp ( guess, it´s not that different in the States ).
The "stable" policedogs either miss a tooth, lack in conformation, or are infertile ( I know, again a generalisation, sorry ).
The "good ones" are sold for 3x as much, but not to police, there is no money...

Everybody knows that there are honest breeders out there who don´t title their dogs, but are able to keep the standard on a high level. But how many?

VK, you wanted statistics ( German Shepherd Dog )

USA : around 40.000 registrations / year ( and breeders don´t need to register, it´s their own decision )
Germany: 10.000 registrations / year ( every puppy has to be registered )

We will get the 2016 dogs/trials numbers at the end of January. Maybe someone else is able to find the amount of trial/titles within the USA. I´ll keep you updated.

Is that German figure a typo?

Maybe 11.000 - I am waiting for the 2016 numbers, but 10.000 may be correct - compared to the US of America we are a small country, and the numbers cease for years now.
The average German who wants to own a pet doesn´t tend to buy a German Shepherd Dog, even over here agility and flyball are incresing, not IPO.

The average price for green dog for police is 7500 to 8500 dollars. Very few are bought from Germany, but not because that kind of money can't buy a good young dog in Germany. I see people buying good IPO 1 dogs from Germany for 6000 to 7500 all the time.

Sorry for the confusion, Gustav, I was talking about German police. I am not up to date, but the limit used to be € 2.000 ( outstanding dogs a little more, but has to be approved officially ) not long ago. The disadvantage: German police doesn´t buy tested/sold, but tested for several weeks/given back if not suitable, whereas International brokers buy the dog and it´s gone forever.
IPO dogs from Germany when sold to American police normally are sold through a broker - that said the German owner gets around € 3000, everything else is for the broker ( that´s at least € 1000 more than in Germany ).
It´s much more effective to sell online to pet people, double the amount ...( and they don´t test the dogs prior to buying )

No problem Susie, LE used to pay little for dogs here in states prior to the tower bombing, but since then and advent of Homeland security dept, the price for LE dog is very competitive...that why I laugh when I hear some folks pontificate about LE dogs here in states. A lot of it is old practices or small rural areas or depts. But hey, all you have to do is know a couple LE officers and work with them a couple times and you become expert on LE dogs....I see it all the time.

Gustav

do we have a Kitkat in the house? lol

Another example of your rudness why do you need to do this  is it to make you look or feel bigger.

Mithuna, my post was NOT directed at anyone on this forum, but at many folks I have talked to including breeders, brokers, and trainers/sport decoys.....these folks have peripheral knowledge of LE dogs but often give advice or define these dogs like they have working knowledge.

Having said the above, there are brokers( like Duke), breeders,( like Mike Diehl) and decoys( like Nate Harves) that DO have working knowledge of LE dogs.....but they are the exceptions.

Yogi, I think you’re caught up in what you do and the testing you do. I believe that your dogs are good and that your dogs won’t have those issues, but the majority of professional people are truly only going to do the bare minimum to place that dog into a police department. Each day they have the dog is hundreds of dollars in expenses and just not worth the time. If they figure out the dog has “weak nerves” but they’ve already spent $3000 just to buy it and who knows how much in costs to raise/train/take care of it, they’ll do what they can to place that dog and get money out of it. They’re not selling that dog to a pet or even sport home and recovering their costs…their only chance is a police department.

We really have to get off the thinking of “if everyone was like me” or even “if everyone was like this amazing person I know.” The truth is, most people are driven by money and profit, simple human nature. If you FORCE them to have a minimum requirement in order to make that profit, they’ll do it, if you don’t, they’ll figure out ways to make money without that requirement. For instance…Gustav has mentioned his state has minimum standards…everyone wanting to place a dog in that state has figured out how to meet those standards and make money. It might be by charging more, but the state has also figured out that it’s worth the extra money to have a guarantee that the dog can pass the minimum requirement. With private homes (pet/sport) breeders that don’t need to meet the minimum requirement have realized they can talk their way into higher profit margins. They use EXCUSES when people question them about things like titling and health…and make the sale because their EXCUSE sounds smart and is more information than the potential buyer probably has. Most here don’t want to admit it…it’s how they make money…why would they put it out there that they’re taking advantage of the system and the consumers?

Hund…I attribute them to you because you keep trying to point out the “exceptions” as if they’re the rule. They’re not. They’re impossible to find, they’re impossible to know if they’re really the exceptions unless you’ve been in the breed for years and have known them for years. You hang on to the handful of breeders you know as if they’re going to rescue the breed in your country. I’m telling you they won’t. They literally can’t, it takes everyone. The statements you hold on to, are exactly what sells puppies for BYBs all over the globe, they’re basically impossible to disprove and sound great to the uninformed (possibly why you’re so attached to them). You’ve bought in, I know you have. You lack the objectivity to grasp what I’m talking about because you’re so bought into a handful of people that you know personally or have followed for years…that’s fine. But once you realize that the reason BYBs can make the claims they do, and sell the dogs they do is because people like you defend the “good exceptions,” the thought of defending the “good exceptions” should seem a little worse. Each time you recommend or excuse an “old timer” for not reaching a minimum standard…you’re giving less knowledgeable people the same excuses to use when less knowledgeable buyers (regular people) come their way. Understand that “knowing just enough to be dangerous” is extremely easy in today’s GSD environment…the internet makes it extremely easy to figure out how to game the system if one is smart enough to do so.