If you had a Magic Wand.... - Page 14

You guys are right...everyone should just tell their customers how amazing they are and how they breed the best of dogs and then the breed would be perfectly fine. Oh wait...people already do that and that's exactly why the breed is where it is. I forget that all of you guys are master dog trainers and evaluators and produce the most amazing of dogs and are definitely the exception to the rule. I'm sure all of you would gladly take a pup from anyone else on this forum and be super happy with it's ability no questions asked.

Hund...stop taking things so personally. You lack the ability to just admit that the overall state of the breed in your country sucks. Gustav has been saying it about the United States for years. Can I find a dog/puppy I want? Sure. But I'm connected, I know where to look, I know pedigrees enough, and can find a puppy that will work. Someone new? Good luck. Why? Because there are no standards. Show up to a breeder's house, they'll show you their dogs, flash some pictures of them doing bite work, running around a ring, or maybe some snap shots from their HIT with some sheep and you'll believe they're the greatest thing since sliced bread and throw $3000 at them before they're even done talking. The sales people in our industry have way more knowledge than the consumers and there is basically no way for consumers to get that knowledge unless they get into the breed. The majority of the breeding in the United States is horrible, and I'm not butt-hurt when someone says it.

I also wish many of you would improve your reading skills. I never said the test should be IPO. I didn't say IPO on purpose because I knew it would get all you PPD people and those that don't title in IPO up in arms and screaming that your dogs are just as good or even better or that you know 5 breeders out of the thousands in this world that definitely produce better dogs without IPO titles than anyone with them. I don't care what the test is, it should test their nerve, it should have obedience, and I do think that tracking should be included because it's something that can be lost very quickly. Weird scenarios don't impress me. I've seen the videos that duke has posted when he's evaluating dogs and that's really all that's usually necessary for an informed person to know if the dog has what it takes to do more scenarios.

The only reason IPO was brought up is that the reason why Germany is still basically the gold standard for breeding dogs, is that it has had a breeding standard all these years. Sure, people have gotten around it, and it's gotten easier so that more dogs are able to pass. But the fact remains, any standard, even a low one, is better than no standard at all. Czech Republic/Slovakia had controlled breeding with standards, Belgium, Holland, ect. They all valued working dogs to accept that there need to be minimum standards and not just let people walk around telling others they're great and proving it with pictures from their iPhones.

In either case...keep banking on your exceptions to the rule. At the moment, the exceptions are the only reason that the breed still has any working ability. Unfortunately for all of us, it's very easy to start following the money and keep convincing people that you're the exception to the rule when you're just breeding anything and everything without a single working or sport placing in generations. The status quo won't change until you admit something is wrong...too bad for most of the people commenting the status quo is much too profitable to want to change it.

That would make better sense BW, if you really are not promoting IPO over other forms of testing, if you didn't keep writing off every other example you are given as though it counts for nothing.

Bw if I remember correctly a few pages back it was said that most police dog come from dog from a sport background . Maybe that why so many police dogs are bitting members of the public and wont out on a bit .week nerve . Which would suggest that the nerve test in sport is not really a nerve test it's more of a learned behavior which is drilled into the dog over year's.
One the I do agree with is tracking it could b lost very easily as it is not something people need every day.
If you wan to c if your dog has nerve test outside the field on something new when your dog is not in drive natural nerve.first time no help will tell u alot.

What other examples? Feel free to quote.

If you think the one off "my dog did this thing one time" is a good enough test to breed dogs...all the power to you. Yet again you're the prime example of why the breed is where it is in countries with no minimal standards. "My dog barks when someone walks by the back yard, it's protective and could definitely be a police dog." "My dog has beautiful movement in the show ring and would definitely be able to herd sheep...just look at how the rear end moves and how it can gait with all 4 feet off the ground, I'll throw it on the farm tomorrow and it will herd all day long." Or my new favorite just mentioned a few days ago on this forum "My dog had beautiful retrieves, it would definitely have gotten an IPO1 title."

All I try to point out is how comical it is that many of you accept and promote these types of tests and don't really see the big picture in what it does. For every friend and buddy you have that breeds with those types of tests and MAYBE produces something half way decent that can work. There are dozens who say the same exact things, post the same things on facebook and on their websites, and their dogs wouldn't work a day in their lives...even in something as easy and simple to do as IPO (Hund you know all about how easy IPO is). For every person that goes above and beyond a minimal test...there are dozens who will post videos that aren't really pushing the dogs beyond a minimum and just making it look like their dogs are something special to the uninformed. Cool videos that how dogs biting sleeves or suits in cars, hallways, stairways, or whatever the poster chooses that isn't an open grass field so that they can bash the "sport dogs."

The main point I tried to make about a minimum test is that nothing will ever be good enough for everyone. There will always be someone out there trying to one up. Not sure who said it here...but the only way to really make a test is pass/fail...but again when money calls they'll be finding ways to bash what all the other people are doing and how their dogs are so much better than anyone else's.

 

Yogi...you make a fine point. And I'm not saying you're not right, but I can also tell you that police dogs bite members of the public and not outing because of lack of training. I can tell you that in many places in the United States...an out isn't necessary. What I've learned from the sport field is that sometimes when we teach a weaker dog to out...it doesn't want to stay in the fight and is always thinking about the out. So why teach it an out if it doesn't have to know it and risk the dog outing at the wrong time? Trainers know they don't have the strongest dogs...they'll work around it...their end users generally don't know any different anyways. Real work is "do it or don't" not "G, SG, V." Same type of discussion...without minimal working standards...trainers will do the bare minimum a particular department requires. Any more and you're just losing money...

I think many have said pass/fail is a better way...I know I have said that. The problem with points is that instead of a test, you get people breeding only for points, and that can quickly produce single-purpose dogs nearly as useless as untitled, single-purpose dogs can (say, dogs bred for pet, etc.) But again, you will always have people exploiting the system- you won't change human nature.

You have to just accept that no matter what the dogs do on the field or in real life...you'll have plenty of people that will find something wrong with that dog. That's the core of why a minimum standard is hard to establish. I can tell you that it will never happen in the United States...mainly because there are too many people, profiting way too much, off of dogs that wouldn't be able to accomplish any "real" minimum standard that people commenting in this thread would even take seriously. We're all on the same page...we all want better GSD.

Jenni...you've said this about me..."I know just enough to be dangerous." The sad thing is...there are plenty of people actually like that. They know how to work the system, find the buyers, sell the dogs. They know just enough to be dangerous and know exactly what test or what line will get them that extra $500 per puppy, or how to stay just above that bottom of the barrel BYB and make a pretty decent living off of it. For every statement someone can make about working dogs...someone can contradict it with another. Like you've said...breeding to high points is breeding to points dogs and not making good working dogs...you go as far as to state they're as useless as untilted dogs. I've seen plenty of breeders making a living off the fact that at some point in the last decade they've placed one dog into a police department somewhere in rural America out of the 5 litters a year they have. Does that tell me they have an amazing working breeding program?

Maybe that's the problem with the whole system...too many people that "know just enough to be dangerous."

I said "nearly as useless"...and I believe that anyone breeding dogs for ONE purpose or to excel at ONE thing is doing a detriment. People know you can cover weak nerves with enough prey drive, and likewise, people know that enough folks don't know enough to question a $3000 price tag on pretty dogs with letters after their names (referring to non-IPO "titled" dogs, like when ASL or BYB put health certs that don't even really apply to the breed in an effort to look extra-credentialed).Kraftwerk is now at $5500 for an 8 week old puppy. Wow. He has some good genetics, there, but I can find the same puppies on working-dog.eu for 800-1000 euros plus shipping. Again, you have to know enough to know that. And until you change the dark side of human nature, you'll always have people taking advantage.

To that extent....how does one breed for multiple purposes? If I breed dogs for IPO, but they end up titling in AKC obedience, or dock diving, or rally...does that make them multifaceted? I place one dog every 10 litters into a police department? That makes me a great breeder? I say that a basic temperament test is necessary, one that proves the dogs can be trained in other venues. What is that temperament test? We'll never make everyone happy, which is why a minimum will never exist, unfortunately, even those with dogs that would be able to pass that test will fight against it...why? It will just be more time and money for something they don't need to do...they can sell puppies telling stories and showing pictures much more easily and cheaply. There's people commenting on this thread that do just that...it just doesn't make any sense for them to fight for some sort of minimum when they're making a living because one doesn't exist.

When I say single purpose, I'm thinking of the countless videos of novice breeders of "working dogs" showing nothing but incessant drive-building, the ads stating people are looking for nothing but "ball drive," etc. I've had people say they just want the puppy with the highest ball drive. What about nerves, character, health, a clear head???

BW i would agree that outing could b a mix of bad training . but i b more inclined to belief it is week nerves as u said if week nerves show on the field they will find a way to work around it . so when you think about it these are the dogs that are been breed from so it would make sense to belive this weakness has been passed through there genes. if u find any weakness it fair to say the weakness can show up in any part of the dog work and that why imo i beleive thats why police dog bite the public out of bad nerves.the test on the feild is of no use as it is not a nerve test it does not go nearly far enough it is merely a test that has been study for years before the exam and it certainly does not go nerly far enough to determine strong or week nerves for dog that have to work under pressure in difficult areas.