If you had a Magic Wand.... - Page 13

It's not just dogs- due diligence seems to be a lost art everywhere. Look at all the people who come to forums and ask about their dogs' lineage AFTER they bought the puppy. I will never understand that. Research, research, research.

@Duke If common sense is the common denominator in dog savvy, that would explain the lack of cohesion in following an all-too-common set of breeder's goals. Breed standards are written down, if only to explain what some one else sensed and perhaps hoped, would be simply apparent, and easily recognized whenever it should be commonly, seen.

Now, someone like you who has to have a good reputation to maintain repeat, continuous, happy business transactions as a LEO K9 procurer has a much different business model than the breeder who needs pet buyer business to make money off their dogs.

@Jenni. I believe the quality of due diligence regarding the value and interpretation of a pedigree follows a learning curve. That is why the newbie is so often proving the statement that "a sucker is born every day."
The trappings of slick photos, advertising and clever copywriting disarm their common sense, time after time when the idea of a healthy, well thought out litter is automatically presumed and attributed to those calling themselves, breeders.

No one likes to mention any of the greedier goals that manifest from time to time and then, only after the deal has gone terribly bad.

Beetree, true, but I'm not bashing those who are taken by those more knowledgeable and cunning and intended to manipulate- I am bashing those who don't even do a simple Google search of the breeder or parents' pedigree until they've put a deposit down. Many, if not most, have been on forums for weeks to months beforehand. That's what I can't wrap my head around- people do more research on a washing machine than a dog.

Hund...sorry this went over your head, but when German breeders get "too old to title dogs themselves" they have other people title their dogs for them. Didn't realize that wasn't a given when I made that statement. On top of that, they are able to place dogs into working/sport homes and get them titled then use them in their kennels for breeding throughout their lives. You cannot depend on the exceptions to the rule to keep the working ability and temperament of the GSD. Everyone, and I mean everyone, and their mother thinks they know what a "good working dog" is, and yet if you just take a step back and look objectively at the working dog breeding in your own country, you'll see it's failing miserably. There really isn't a good reason why countries like the US and UK can't produce working dogs like Germany, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and other countries are able to produce...except that in our countries our registries and our consumers do not require minimum titling. Let's be serious...in the show rings in our respective countries, a dog that doesn't growl or tuck it's tail when a judge approaches it is considered "great working temperament" to the majority of GSD breeders.

The exceptions to the rule cannot carry the breed no matter how great you think those people are. Every single one of them becomes kennel blind, and without comparing their dogs to their contemporaries they quickly fall behind. It's also pretty much impossible for a consumer to figure out who is a true exception to the rule, and who is just working the system and making themselves out to be an "exception" without actually knowing what they're talking about or doing.

A tually thinking about it lots of small not so rich countries beat the crap out of UK/US.

Holland/Netherlands
Belgium
Slovakia
Romania
Germany
Switzerland
....

Have more requirements for breeding and export a lot more dogs.

Wish I had access to the figures and plot the number of puppies born per export dogs or number of imports per export, GDP, population, WUSV winners, dogs in service.....whatever measure you want its going to look pathetic for some.

Point me to the data guys, I will do the math let's settle this.

Yes, but I was not claiming anything for the UK in the first place. So thanks for the put-downs.

Fact: not many people breed for 'working' dogs, GSD or otherwise, in the UK. There are breeds, and breeders, who cherish the working history of their particular brand of dog, and wish to retain those abilties in the breed. Some breeds have more success than others with that one; for some it is a bit easier to keep doing, because our Kennel Club is quite encouraging about, say, Field Sports and the breeds generally associated with Trialing in those. OTOH, the number of opportunities for some of those Sports, where they involve tearing small furries to pieces, has dropped, in this somewhat more sensitive day-and-age. Added to which, the less particularly bloodthirsty the Brits have become over the past couple of centuries has also resulted in people here, generally, not being too keen on seeing dogs apparently tear lumps out of humans, either. So we do not perhaps have the same degree of support among the general population for teaching dogs biting games. Anyone who shows any marked interest in watching the working breeds do clever things chasing down decoys, or even exhibiting a lot of the intricate obedience and tracking skills which can culminate in bitework, is regarded as a bit odd, I think, judging by the small attendance of spectators to PD trials and demos . So in that atmosphere, its not really surprising if the majority of Show breeders have not striven to get more involved with qualifying their GSDs in the working disciplines; but I think nonethless that many want their stock to have the POTENTIAL to produce a dog that can 'work', I don't think they actively (the vast majority) try to produce a GSD that deliberately has NO latent working abilities whatsoever ! Which is why
they remain a bad idea for a pet for newbs, btw.

However ... there is a large section of UK GSD breeders and enthusiasts, those involved with the League as it is currently run and the Regional system of Shows, who are trying to change this situation. It isn't easy for them, especially in the face of the Kennel Club's lack of interest;
it isn't easy, either, if people make sweeping generalisations about their interests and abilities and conviction on international forums. Not very encouraging, guys - many would think you actively wanted them to go on failing ...

Also, fact: where we do have actual working GSDs, in our Police, Prisons, Army & Air Force dog sections - and breeders associated with those services - there is no evidence for the claim that "the working dog breeding is failing miserably". There may not be sports titles
(although that's not unknown either) but these dogs are well trained, good at what they do, and 'breed it on' probably as much as working dogs anywhere else in the world.

Germany is different. If the Brits had adopted, from the beginning of the 20th Century onwards, the organised system that Germany has, we might be talking in very different terms today. You could say that about America, too, y'know ! So where some of our people are at least trying to get something parallel to the SV way of doing things up and running, I think it folly to 'write that off' (unless you are scared by the possible results, given that when Britain has done anything else dog-related in the past, it has excelled at it internationally!) JK (maybe).

None of which IMHO completely deals with the fact that people in Germany , despite their built-in advantages in dog organisation, can apparently still scam the lives out of US importers of puppies, whether the paperwork or the titles claimed for the parents prove BS.
They may not get excess money trading within their own country & within their own SV system, but judging by wails of distress on this board, it quite often happens they charge over the odds where they think people are daft enough to pay it. And let's not forget - we are talking basically about "club rules"; I have not heard that it is enshrined in German LAW that you have to title your dogs in Sch/IPO ... and of course NO dogs are bred and sold in Germany outside the SV system, are they, nor lies ever told about quality.

Of course it isn't correct to let a minority of cases (of anything) excuse or set the scene for what 'everybody' feels is wrong with something across the board - all I have ever asked is that there should be SOME acknowledgement that there are sometimes exceptions (even those that 'prove the rule').

Every single one......Kennel Blind??....hmm....it gets better every post!...lol

Ever heard that you can't win an argument with "always" or "never," BW? My guess is that "every single one" would fall into that category. ;-)

Like I said a few pages back- you're taking some big big leaps. It seems like you've only been around one facet of the dog world long enough to form an opinion, and your perspective is lacking. You're only seeing one avenue as a means for growth and improvement. Why would any of us even mess with these dogs if it's all as bad as you say?

Good post jenni I felt the same way BW has some good idea of the sport end of things but outside of that I think u are lacking knowledge you seem to think that there is no other way to deem a dog is good or not other than ipo. I have seen ipo dog very good dog in there feild wound not pass 70 percent of the tests I do with my dog's and im not only talking bite work

I am quite sure there are exceptional claims being made for the UK, now, and also must return the thanks for the USA put downs.

I would have to agree with Gustav, that yes! It gets better with every post! 😂

That was a long winding theory of facts to say.... what? UK dog royalty, when motivated will be the exception deserving to be the rule. Opposite to that thought and In particular is the situation for newbs in the USA involved in (mass) GSD puppy production because they aren't required to follow breeding rules and thus don't bother, or are too stupid to look for guidance from the countries that do?

The USA dollar calls the shot then, and the current dog du jour is the green PP dog, with nominal training, just enough to show teeth on the end of a leash. Finding the sweet spot between age and training is the ticket to most profit. Pursuing titles destroys the profit margin.