Just Curious, Where the ASL people at - Page 13

I didn't want to make it more confusing than it already is. They can barely wrap their mind around the simplified version of the 4 predominantly known major splits in the US ;)

Fair enough, BE. Unfortunately I think we need to be clearer; even if that is more confusing for some ! LOL.
Not everybody reading these posts is in the States (or, come to that, a German with a lot of insight into the ways of the States / USA GSD market); while you clarify and simplify for those readers in the USofA, you leave others outside that milieu who ARE confused by your list. I just like to confirm there is more to it, for those other readers, from time to time. Believe me, there is a great deal more I COULD say about the European & Scandi situation, than I included here.

I'm pretty sure every Country has their "sub split" of a breed. Especially those that have been somewhat isolated from the scene like England for example (due to their aversion to Germany which went as far as calling the breed Alsatian), the Chinese are changing the look of the breed to be more Mastiff Type and basically created a "Chinese Shepherd" out of the German Shepherd dog, the Russians had their own breeding program as well, and so had a few other countries. And then there are the Altdeutsche Schaeferhunde and so on and forth.

But this doesn't just apply to the German Shepherd Dog.

There are many other breeds that have splits as well. Look at the Labrador. There is a distinctive Show and Working line split.

The Belgian Shepherd is a split breed with different varieties and there as well you have Showlines and Worlking lines (specifically in the AKC where it truly shows the difference in temperament and workability).

This is not just a German Shepherd thing anymore. Many breeds are affected.

Well yeah, up to a point. Working v. show/pet in type, in Labs, Belgian Shepherds (esp. Malinois), and various other breeds is a sort of one-trick pony. Can't think of any other breed than GSD which has QUITE so many variations / 'splits' !

Oh, and please, can we talk about things a bit closer to the current date, than continually dragging up that post - WWll 'anti-anything-German' stuff ? It happened, it wasn't pretty, it affected other German breeds too, but it's now quite a long while ago. All it is good for is explaining the use of the word 'Alsatian'.

Just looking at the 'net, it doesn't seem that portion of the Chinese fanciers going for the big ugly heads are (yet ?) thinking of trying to call the dog anything other than a GSD, still.

For me it´s pretty easy - there are countries/clubs of origin, that created a breed standard.

As soon as anybody/any country/any club changes the original breed standard the name of the breed should be changed - different standards = different breeds.
For example ( forgive me, I am German, just think about any native North American breed ) a dog not bred according to the German rules is no "German" Shepherd Dog, it´s an ASL,it´s an Alsatian, or it´s a Chinese whatever -
different standards = different breeds, at least for me.

I don´t care if the German Shepherd Dog in front of me is a "working line" or if it´s a "show line" - the dog has to fit to the breed standard of origin, and as a working dog breed it has to proof it´s working abilities according to the rules of origin.

Could be that simple...

The German Shepherd is very comparable to the American Quarter Horse. Just look at all the varieties, differences in structure and use and then you've got the Halter Horses that are not really good for anything other than Halter.

Either way, the split is there, the SV created the split. The SV sold the GSD out. If it hadn't been for the big push with the Martin brothers it would have never come that far. They made the Showline what it is today.

Susie, it might have been that simple, if that had happened; but it has never been a habit of 'the dog world' anywhere to consider either its constituent countries subject to such instructions from the originating country of any breed, or to think overmuch about the confusion of others ! Sadly. If the SV had tried to suggest what you outline with the GSD under every other country's Kennel Club, it would have found it really difficult, if not impossible, to get them to agree, I am sure.

Also, what sounds like common sense at this remove does not actually work, anyway. Suppose for example the UK Kennel Club had agreed such a regular thing: the acknowleged country of origin is the GSD, so when 'we' amended the Standard (after translation) we should have started off with a new name ? 'We' almost did - but the "Alsatian Wolf Dog" did nobody any favours when it came into the picture (not to mention being wildly inaccurate on 2 counts). Well the great British public of the '30s onwards may have wanted that, but I doubt the Germans of the time would have been especially pro having the name of their national breed messed about with in the way it was, by any other nation ?

Then you have the problem of breeds where the country of origin isn't clear - when the Brits drew up Standards for Poodles, should that have been for the German Poodle or the French Poodle ? That still hasn't been completely resolved. Going, as they did for a time, with the possibly erroneous French version, they would have no doubt kept Germany happy (because it was no longer a German Standard); but what about France ? Your idea only works if everybody does it. And what about American originated breeds and the tendency to call them totally off-base names ('Australian' instead of 'Californian' Shepherd, anyone ?). Dunno where you guys stand on the Akita Inu from Japan, but we had a real row at the point where the UK KC split the "Akita" from the "American Akita"
- but they had become, by then, two pretty different types of dog.

Nah - what seems on the face of it so simple, would really be too complicated. LOL.

Lol...late to the party but sorry BE...honest about your dogs? She claimed that her 7 month old dog had beautiful retrieves and would've easily titled in IPO earlier in this thread.

Can't stand how much we'll stand up for our buddies even when they're lying through their teeth. The status quo defends itself once again. Better to be friends in case of a recommendation than to tell the truth about what is actually happening. Everything for the mighty dollar.

She never said that she would easily title. She said she was a Club Level Girl and could have titled IPO 1 at the most. That is a big difference from "Easily titled"! And passing a 1 is really not that much of a magic trick these days.

Also, whats wrong with nice retrieves? You can teach any dog a nice IPO retrieve if you condition it right from the beginning. It's really not that hard once you know how to do it. My dog has beautiful retrieves as well. As a matter of fact, it's his job and literally muscle memory to the point where I'm probably going to be one of the only people out there having a dog retrieve articles on the track.

This has nothing to do with buddy buddy or busting out a friend. It's about being a decent human being. And I know Jackie well enough to know that she is a down to earth and honest person. I happen to like her. And yes, when someone is looking for an ASL I am sending people to her. Because I've met her dogs and I happen to like them for what they are.

If you've got an issue with that, it's not my problem.

Being a decent human being seems to be a hard thing these days :p

And indeed, I said Mogwai was capable of a club level 1. Not like I was saying should could go to nationals LOL. The nice thing about Mirada's retrieves was that she generalized in a way none of my other dogs ever had. Once she understood "take it" with the dumbbell, I could point at anything...and she'd take it. With my other dogs, the only thing they took (without engaging in some separate training) was the dumbbell.

I have an entire album of Ickle Bitty holding all sorts of random objects. It was pretty amusing. Her present owner says she still enjoys doing such things.