TIEKERHOOK breedings in the USA???? - Page 13

TIEKERHOOK breedings in the USA????
by darylehret on 22 August 2009 - 20:08

darylehret

Posts: 542
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 06:58 am
Molly, can you add anything that would validate or refute evidence of handler aggression through Yoschy, either through your lines or through any associates you've trained with?

Anyone see the recent "food drive" video of Max and Catch on the Tiekerhook site? Max is a grandson, and Catch is 3-3,4 on Yoschy, both being antagonized while eating http://www.tiekerhook.com/images/videos/fooddrive.wmv If either of these two were handler aggressive, that would be a pretty good opportunity to see it expressed.

My dog Hutch is a full sibling to Catch, and though his food drive is at least as great as these two, I can take the food from his mouth, and he'd willingly give it. His aggression is also equally as intense and quick to ignite. Over two years old now, and never has challenged me. He's played deaf a few seconds or so while chasing sheep, but his prey drive is so strong it would be difficult to fault him for it. The kind of willing enthusiasm I've enjoyed from my Yoschy bred dog is greater than I've experienced with any other. In my estimation, in large part due to his genetics, and enriched by the relationship we've built.

I've not engaged in any particular training methods in either schutzhund or sheepherding that would encourage handler aggression, but my opinion is, I could make many if not most dogs purposely handler aggressive through training if I tried. So, I'd have to ascribe to the theory as you mention Jim, that some dogs will have issues with the wrong type of handlers.


TIEKERHOOK breedings in the USA????
by darylehret on 22 August 2009 - 20:08

darylehret

Posts: 542



Hi, I watched that video and those dogs seemed ready to bite at any time.  If you can't take the food bowl  away without getting
bit, I think that is awfully human aggressive. 
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 06:58 am
Molly, can you add anything that would validate or refute evidence of handler aggression through Yoschy, either through your lines or through any associates you've trained with?

Anyone see the recent "food drive" video of Max and Catch on the Tiekerhook site? Max is a grandson, and Catch is 3-3,4 on Yoschy, both being antagonized while eating http://www.tiekerhook.com/images/videos/fooddrive.wmv If either of these two were handler aggressive, that would be a pretty good opportunity to see it expressed.

My dog Hutch is a full sibling to Catch, and though his food drive is at least as great as these two, I can take the food from his mouth, and he'd willingly give it. His aggression is also equally as intense and quick to ignite. Over two years old now, and never has challenged me. He's played deaf a few seconds or so while chasing sheep, but his prey drive is so strong it would be difficult to fault him for it. The kind of willing enthusiasm I've enjoyed from my Yoschy bred dog is greater than I've experienced with any other. In my estimation, in large part due to his genetics, and enriched by the relationship we've built.

I've not engaged in any particular training methods in either schutzhund or sheepherding that would encourage handler aggression, but my opinion is, I could make many if not most dogs purposely handler aggressive through training if I tried. So, I'd have to ascribe to the theory as you mention Jim, that some dogs will have issues with the wrong type of handlers.

I'd be willing to bet the food could be taken from either dog without getting bit, but I could be wrong.  But if so, in fairness I wouldn't blame the dog.  I see a dog that can tolerate a lot of abuse, and still retain stability.  I see that in my Hutch as well, with pups biting and jumping on him, and other instances where he remains well composed and focused despite something irratable or totally distracting occuring.

Hutch's appearance is medium sized and weighs 85 lbs, so perhaps many dogs are oversized on average, and makes his size unimpressive.  My understanding being the GSD standard is so often ignored.  Any larger would begin to compromise his athletic ability, and I assure you he's powerful enough to drag a static 200lbs. across a parking lot.

daryll ,
did you ever put some serious pressure on your dog , to force him into doing what you want him to do
in obed. or bitework , because many dogs are fine as long as you dont ask too much of them
ive  seen quite a few handleragressive dogs that seemed fine when not pressured

about the fooddrive videos , what is great about that , what is desirable about that ,I know dogs with over the top fooddrive but you can take their food without getting bitten
also this behaviour can be trained , it can be incouraged or taken away from a young dog just like that

if you avoid something it doesnot mean it is not there

And neither can you force the willing!  He does what I want him to, there is no conflict.  I've given only a couple corrections prior to 18 months, I think both were prong corrections for not outing immediately.  I apply a lot of hard physical pressures in bite training and tugwork, and he is enthusiastic about all aspects of work, either schutzhund or herding, in jumping, climbing, retrieving, running blinds.  Like I said, the most conflict I've had, are "sudden deafness" around livestock.  I'm not used to having to repeat myself to him.

As I said already, it's probably there in most dogs, if it's your wish to bring it out.  I don't "ask too much" of him, because he wants whatever it is that I want.   If you didn't get my point with the food drive vid, forget the example.  I'm saying handler aggression can be taught through bad handling, and you're saying handler aggression can be taught to be suppressed.

daryll , what the dogs in the vids are showing with their foodbowls is comming from a different place than agressive response towards the handler after a correction or command

different situation, different motivation

Just as handler aggression comes from a "different place" than civil drive.  The video demostrates to me a high threshold for tolerance, despite being in elevated drive.

Willingness----Tolerance-----Forgiveness

A dog can display these qualities and whatever degrees lie between them, and each do nothing to facilitate aggressive behavior toward the handler, in fact work against its expression.  IOW, in a dog with pronounced qualities like so, incidence of handler aggression should in fact be much lower, despite high provocation.  Am I not explaining clearly, or the only one who "gets it"?

This is my experience with Tiekerhook and Yoschy lines, and see no reason to encourage poor or unnecessary corrections in attempt to provoke such an incidence to make my point.  I'm not "feeding that wolf."

daryll
correct me if im wrong  , but your previous dogs being czech and or ddr  , where does your experience with these lines come from other than hutch , you have right now
whit hutch you are herding so not really testing him on  his nerves/drives when in a higher state of mind doing bitework or even high level OB

secondly , you dont need poor or unnecessary corrections to bring out handleragression ,

extreme example a dobermann at a club I used to train was in the down position , his owner 15 feet away
doberman decided not to stay down anymore and got up , the owner gave a very strong verbal command DOWN
resulting in the dog attacking the owner
owner went to hospital and dobermann went on last trip to vet that day

this is an extreme example , but no poor or unnecessary corrections were used here

other example , young GSD at my club growls and bites towards other dogs on the field TD says if he goes for other dog make turn , and give command heel and enforce command(make him do it )
result GSD attacked the arm that corrected him
again no poor handling , no unnecessary corrections , just conflict of intentions

so if you think it takes poor handling to bring out handleragression your wrong

I don't know how many more ways to say it.... there is NO CONFLICT.  His will is to do whatever I ask of him.  He's taken forceful verbal commands, and I still have my jewels.  I've worked him in schutzhund up to 19 months, and have seen and tested enough to know what I want to see.  You're correct in my limited experience with westline dogs, Hutch is my first.  I've seen plenty on the field, but owned no other than him.  If you think I haven't seen enough handler aggression, you're wrong.  I've not seen it though, through any dog that shows a high degree of biddability or willingness toward the handler, have you?