A CONFORMATION TEST in GSD WORKING TRIALS - REQUIRED - Page 13

Liz, the reverse can be said of the show line owners.  They admire the beauty of their dogs but God forbid anyone should suggest that their tempreament of work ethic is at fault.

Jess

Speaking as a person who breeds, owns, trains and titles german show line dogs.....I can honestly say, I would rather have a house full of SG show rated dogs as long as they are honestly schutzhund titled, and can actually do the work.  THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH A G OR SG RATED DOG!!!!  I would even breed my V rated dogs to an G or SG rated dog IF the working ability is there. Ability that is proven on a working dog trial field and NOT at a sieger show.

The true beauty of a dog is proven through its ability to work (whatever that work may be). In the US of A, most VA rated dogs are NOT a true representation of the breed. They are given excellent select when they do NOT deserve the pronounced rating that got them to head of the show ring. This is NOT heresay at all, there are numerous incidents, and anyone who says they haven't seen this happen is either blind or doesn't want to tick off the owners of the dogs this happened with.

Videx, I would NEVER agree to a proposal such as your's for ONE simple reason. UNTIL the written rules of judging the sieger show are ACTUALLY followed, how can anyone expect the rules you propose to be followed? Why would anyone want to enter a venue where you know ahead of time that the judging isn't going to be fair or honest? We need to clean our OWN house before we yell at the neighbors to clean their's.

I would enjoy seeing more working line dogs at shows. This past year I saw increasing numbers of working line dogs at the regional show. It was wonderful! All fo them were even ring trained! Imagine that! The best part was seeing some of the top show dog handlers, out there before the show and during the show helping the working dogs and their handlers present to the best of their ability. There was no division of breed at that show. There were friends, enthusiasts ALL working together to help each other's dogs.

Videx, you wiley devil, First you spout out that the V dogs in workinglines allows the "G" dogs to hide "behind". Interpretation: that most workinglines are G rated and we need fix this(or else why inject the rating into the equation), then we look at the highest working trial in Germany and we see 30% of the dogs V rated, 50% of the dogsKK1( with another unkoered dog V rated which would probably make that 60%). And only 10% of the top ten working dogs in the country in 08 with your coveted example rating of "G". Obviously, we are not going to let the "facts" get in the way of your statements. Once again the flowery words and analogies of children may be sound grandiose to the novice, but you continue to making sweeping statement and avoid hard facts. You never comment on the interpretatation of the show standard "not " correlating with very good working dogs. You never address the comments about the fact that the world has seen top conformation dogs that could work and produce top conformation and work dogs, I guess because they don't "look or are built" like current conformation dogs. And you don't address the judges interpretation that current conformation should be Black and red and extreme in shoulder and angulation when the proof of this being necessary for the GS to be able to retain its rightful place in the working world is LACKING. So at the end of the day the bottom line is(I tried to say it politely first), people don't want current showline conformation for their dogs nor consider it a move to the middle!!...Point, Match, Grand Slam!!!   If its not conformation similar to the V conformation dogs like Marko, Mutz, and Bernd,(and most V workinglines look like these dogs that's why they can work at high levels), then your idea is going nowhere. Sorry ole chap! JMO....and sir this is not personal, just reality!

 Quote: Many other comments are NOTHING to do with the subject of the thread, it appears that many do not read the posts, or understand them, they jump in ill prepared and shoot from the hip, missing the target by miles. They make stereotypical diversionary comments all too typical from working dog people on show dogs. Precisely the waffle and assumptions routinely spewed forth on this site by some 'self proclaimed' working people. The regularly repeated rumours, mainly inaccurate, or based on wishful thinking, and even outright lies, and frequently repeated because they appeal to the MOST BASIC instincts of the human (un)competitive minds. 

What am I saying that is wrong about the Showline dogs ??? I am curious as to where you are located so that maybe one day I will go and check these dogs out. 

If you have a dog that can do Mondio Ring that would be great, lets see it work. Let's see it do Sch, I would be interested in that as well.

Did I miss something ???

I he scared of me ???? LOL

Liz, I think you wrong there is a lot of working line lovers that recognize some issue, even in this threat some of us mention it, that more and more dog's are being produce for sport rather than work, which in exchange gives you a dog with huge amount of drives and not capable to live in every day enviroment (home enviroment) but there is diversification in the working breed that allows you to choose the dog that has right amount of drives for the work, and still can come home and being a house pet. I happen to be very lucky I have dog with right amount of drives to perform any job, and still she enjoy watching animal, discovery and history channel in the evening with me :) lol. Another issue within the working breed that is extremely hard to find fero or troll free dog, and I belive this is something that working line breeders need to keep an eye on. Structure wise I don't find any issues within working line, sure there are some ugly dog's but it's not extremly hard to find a dog out of V rated parents, which in turn in my opinion speaks values of working line breeders as we know most breed for working ability rather than anything else. More and more breeders stressed the importance of health check, DNA and OFA. I my self don't like to see some of the heavy line breeding that can be found in some of the working line dog's but it is not hard to find a dog with no line breeding in 5 generation or even more. My personal opinion is that working line breeders got it right comparing to some showline breeders. I don't discriminate a dog based on being a show line or work line, I rather judge a dog on individual basis. I am pro working lines but that dose not mean I will turn my back on good showline dog that can do the job. I am not against Videx idea but the problem is judging in conformation, and I can't see any working line breeders changing their attitude and start breeding dog's for looks rather than working ability. Salbrisee (sorry for the spelling) I belive she crossed working line with showline do I think that is a bad idea? No I am glad to see that there are breeders that are taking different approach and trying to improve the breed as a whole. I always going to be pro improvement, but I think showline need it more than work line at this point of time. Improve showline working ability and you will see workline people crossing over slowly to improve their dog conformation if they will be able not to compromise working ability of their dog. Lets start from the bottom up and not the other way around. But this is only my opinion and I don't expect any one to agree with me 100% opinion are like assholes every one has one and they all stink. LoL :) 

Of Course workinglines have issues....Snaipier is right on....How many times have I posted on this forum about dogs having " more drive than brains", this is incorrect and i don't condone or strive to achieve this. Had a beautiful DDR bitch with short upper arm but was very balanced, so when bred I always sought studs with good shoulder and arm assembly to bring that back into the equation. Any time I breed I am trying to improve structure based upon what i am lacking "per the standard". This is the fallacy of showline assertions about workingline breeders in many cases. The catch is, that I am not striving "for what wins in the showring today", but rather what is lacking as defined by the written standard. So the proposal for workingline people to improve their conformation is nothing new, they just are NOT going to breed for current showline fancy, its too extreme and counterproductive to the ultimate goal of producing working dogs. We all want V rated dogs that can work, both sides, but genetics prohibits showlines from getting there with the current structure type approved at high levels.

Jeff he is in the UK so he sees nill WL dogs or real trials. I kinda feel sorry for the guy, he doesn't see a good dog, to know one or enough to spew his own predjudices about them. He can call us names and ignorant, lazy for not showing our dogs, when at the same time he does the same. LOL It's like a circus full of clowns. Kinda funny but more scary.

"As for comparing Show dogs bitework with Working dogs bitework, this thread is NOT about that issue. I accept there is a need to improve the working ability of many show dogs, and when the working dogs dramatically improve their overall conformation, there will be more willingness by show breeders to use them. 

Many other comments are NOTHING to do with the subject of the thread, it appears that many do not read the posts, or understand them, they jump in ill prepared and shoot from the hip, missing the target by miles. They make stereotypical diversionary comments all too typical from working dog people on show dogs. Precisely the waffle and assumptions routinely spewed forth on this site by some 'self proclaimed' working people. The regularly repeated rumours, mainly inaccurate, or based on wishful thinking, and even outright lies, and frequently repeated because they appeal to the MOST BASIC instincts of the human (un)competitive minds."

So it is up to the working line folks to "get" the show folks to breed to our dogs to improve the temperament of theirs? We do the work whiel you sit on your ass? LOL Novel idea.

Stereotypical comments...David, look in the mirror, you wouldn't know a good dog if it bit you on the rear. You "might" be able to guess his show rating though. I have yet to see any inaccurate "rumors" by anyone but yourself. We have all watched the shows and witnessed to sad failures in the bitwork. Not sure how you can call that assumtion? I think you can find many agree, if the judges would judge fairly and to a "real" standard, not some cartoon cookie cutter dog, more working people would show their dogs. Maybe even myself. As for now...I see no reason to waste my time or money showing just to fall at the end of the line, when I can use my time more wisely and actually get something productive out of my dog.

I can't stand these politics in the breed and try to steer clear of it and do my own thing, mind my own business. However, when you come here trying to force me and my dog to do something, I'll jump right in.

DeesWolf, you keep on shocking me, first your website, now your responds, if showline would have more breeders like you there wouldn't be any issues or brake down between both lines. Showline breeders like you are hard to come by and they def. deserve to be noted.

Deeswolf, i also commend your reasonableness in your assessment of your own house. People like you will be able o facilitate change and compromise much more so than those that have their head in the sand...Bravo!

Who agrees that structure is easier to fix than temperament? What good will breeding a soft VA dog to a nice working dog do? Not that the VA owner is going to do that and lose $ or buyers. In the last few years we are seeing more people here, willing to mix SL x WL. My 1st and only breeding was one of these. I doubt I will do that again, instead look for better structured WL dogs, there are PLENTY out there. Here are some V rated working line dogs....