If you had a Magic Wand.... - Page 12

I don't think organisation, logistics, money, geography.... have anything to do with it.

I really believe it is about making the quickest and most profit the easiest way possible.

If breeders loved the breed as much as they pronounce they would work them.

Come forward the excuse train.

@vk - well I'm not trying to claim it as an excuse for ALL cases; just pointing out (in the face of BW's remorseless over-generalisations of absolutely everything he ever disagrees with) that people vary, and there are often exceptions to any given subset of circumstances.  Once you've known or heard of one or two people who fit the exception, you have to believe they can't be the only ones.

Happy New Year.

First of all - Happy New Year!

"Susie, please clarify this for me ? Are you agreeing with Bav's generalisation that "the Germans have been able to figure out how to train and title their breeding stock even if they weren't able to do it themselves ", or agreeing with him that almost all US and other non-German breeders are just using previous titles as a sales pitch ?"

When I wrote my post I agreed to this statement :

Bav: "My original answer in this thread was that if I had a magic wand, I’d require a minimum temperament test for all dogs, and I don’t really care what they look like. In the beginning, we had that, some countries still do. Mine in particular does not…and I directly correlate that to the state of the breed as a whole in my country. I didn’t state that it had to be IPO because I know that if I made that statement you’d have exactly the types of comments you saw…”well my dog did sports X, Y, Z and had points in the breed ring so it definitely makes it equal to the dogs winning the WUSV.” I don’t know what a perfect test would be…for me, strictly obedience titles don’t do it, more needs to be tested. Everyone here craps all over IPO every chance they get for being too easy, yet a miniscule percentage of dogs are titled in this “way too easy” sport. If barely anyone titles in IPO, how can we expect the minimum standard to be more difficult than that and expect people to go for it (I’m being realistic here)? "

But the other statements are true, too... ( generalisation about German breeders and titled dogs as sales pitch )

You are right, people vary, for every rule there is an exception, but those few exceptions don´t change the rule.

In case the North Americans would be interested in dogsports there would be clubs in every town; no interest = no clubs.

The main problem may be the different price politics - our breeders are not able to make exorbitant money with puppies. After fulfilling all the requirements ( titles, health tests, show ratings ) the pups are sold for € 600 - € 1000.

You are able to buy a "normal" IPO titled, health tested, show rated, breed surveyed dog for € 2000 - € 4000 over here, as long as some Americans are willing to pay that much money for a 8 weeks old puppy out of untitled or cheaply imported dogs there is no reason for any breeder to put work and money into the breeding stock.

People are lazy...

German SV is thinking about different breeding requirements for a couple of years now ( the new established temperament test, followed by a different breed survey sooner or later, afterwards IPO no longer requirement for breeding ).

My guess: As soon as German breeders will be able to circumvent the working titles, even in Germany a lot of breeders will stop to title their dogs. The result will be the ultimate split between working lines and show lines. And I bet the untitled, pretty pets will be the more expensive ones, because that´s what the international market is interested in.

I think this development is a major fault, I don´t think the breed has to change, but the people who are interested in the breed. In case a breeder doesn´t find enough homes for his working dog puppies he should quit breeding, but not change the temperament of the breed.

Pet owners want to own a "policedog", a "Rintintin", but they don´t want to deal ( or can´t deal ) with the original temperament of this breed. In case it wouldn´t be that sad, it would even be funny...

There is no rule that says there have to be born 10 000s of German Shepherd Dog puppies year after year - the temperament that made the German Shepherd Dog that popular is killing the breed.

 

 

Sorry, that was my "New Year´s" rant...

The more I read this forum, the more I realize how little I know about this breed. 🤔
If I had a magic wand, I would take away points and ribbons as a way of assessing dogs/breeders.

Gustav, what would you use instead to make and measure an assessment of a good dog and a good breeder? Your vast personal experience based opinion isn't transferable, unfortunately. And impossible to benchmark without using a magic wand.

Thanks Susie, your "rant" is a perfectly reasonable one ! I think maybe we should stick to making conclusions about our own countries; it sounds as though you know your fellow Germans pretty well (though it does not sound to me as though you specifically endorse Bav's statement about 'they can all find someone to train their stock for them when they can't '- Bav, perhaps, ought to explain what he thinks that system actually is ?). Maybe he is absolutely right about 'all' the Americans - I was just extrapolating from what I know of human nature ! I realise now I should have said I know there have been UK people in that situation down the years ...

There is no secret behind that statement - we have to title, so as a result the dogs are titled.

Breeders are active parts of the local clubs over here, that said they are not working their dogs on their own, but they are surrounded by people who support them. You can´t train and title by yourself, you need several people ( handlers, helpers ). Breeders give puppies to friends, they title the dogs ( in case the breeder isn´t able to train and title any longer ), and these dogs are used for breeding.
It´s a well functioning system - a "kennel" normally is a team, everybody participating, be it by getting good dogs, getting experience, or even getting some money.

I got almost all of my dogs through this system - you know the parents, had hands on them, know what to await...

Beetree, you have to use your eyes and common sense to start with

there is one famous dog for example that lots of people bred to without ever seeing him work, never trailed, no videos on internet and still bred a lot

so for most people a title and a (photoshopped ) picture will do the trick, fancy website, state to the art facilities, yes all so important to sell the dream LOL

Duke, "for most people" even "title" isn't a necessity, a cute 8-week-old puppy picture is enough to "do the trick".

Germans are doing it only because they have to. But there's a system for a start.

What option is better for a buyer? To believe in a system or to believe in what a random person is claiming about his own dogs?