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by eichenluft on 22 October 2010 - 15:10
and, the dogs posted for comparison are standing naturally - even the last one that appears to be a show line - if they were stacked or stretched out as extreme as Javir is for this picture, they would also appear much different than they do while standing naturally. where is a picture of Javir standing naturally? betcha he wouldn't look like the same dog in the above picture - comparison is not fair in this instance.
molly
molly
by StephanieJ on 22 October 2010 - 15:10
Ms. Graft stated: "breeders should care about improving".."STRUCTURE, pigment, type, bone - even smaller stuff like eye color, feet (round, tight feet instead of long flat), ear set.."
Poppycock.
Firstly, the breed has devolved during its hundred plus year history of having a written conformation standard, not improved. Secondly, please tell me how structure et al positively affect working ability. You can not because they do not. At this point in GSD history, they are a purely conditioned desirable visual. If it were otherwise there would be a tendancy for dogs with excellent ratings in conformation to also excel in the work, and for the show winners to be kicking ass at the working trials. Instead I suggest they work despite what they look like, and in most V conformation rated dogs very unexceptionally at that.
Also, I find your back-pedaling re posting a photo of your dog designed to make him look better than he is laughable on one hand and sadly thought provoking on the other hand considering your position in a national organization whose purpose is to safeguard the the integrity of the breed.
Poppycock.
Firstly, the breed has devolved during its hundred plus year history of having a written conformation standard, not improved. Secondly, please tell me how structure et al positively affect working ability. You can not because they do not. At this point in GSD history, they are a purely conditioned desirable visual. If it were otherwise there would be a tendancy for dogs with excellent ratings in conformation to also excel in the work, and for the show winners to be kicking ass at the working trials. Instead I suggest they work despite what they look like, and in most V conformation rated dogs very unexceptionally at that.
Also, I find your back-pedaling re posting a photo of your dog designed to make him look better than he is laughable on one hand and sadly thought provoking on the other hand considering your position in a national organization whose purpose is to safeguard the the integrity of the breed.
by eichenluft on 22 October 2010 - 16:10
LOL Stephanie - you are wrong. And completely uninformed. But, go on, keep proving how ignorant you are.
by johan77 on 22 October 2010 - 21:10
Eichenluft, yes maybe javir looks more extreme in that picture but it seems that this is exactly what some wants also in a workingdog. I´ve seen him on film and he do look a bit less extreme but still he is a bit to "showy" looking compared to many more square old type looking dogs. The last dogs I posted isn´t a showline, he may have a few ancestors going back to older showdogs but they are not similar to the modern showdogs I guess.
Rik, some very nice producers have not done much on the sportfield at all, so that comparsion is irrelevant in this discussion. Countless of "ugly" square more shortbacked dogs with less angulation has also worked hard in different areas, in fact the whole breed did until the exagerations in anatomy the last 30-40 years.
If shows really should have a function they should only be a tool for selecting against unsound anatomy that hinders the dog as a workingdog, not as it is now where unsoudness seems to be favoured, or is the showdogs of today really the best dogs in structure for working, of course not.
Rik, some very nice producers have not done much on the sportfield at all, so that comparsion is irrelevant in this discussion. Countless of "ugly" square more shortbacked dogs with less angulation has also worked hard in different areas, in fact the whole breed did until the exagerations in anatomy the last 30-40 years.
If shows really should have a function they should only be a tool for selecting against unsound anatomy that hinders the dog as a workingdog, not as it is now where unsoudness seems to be favoured, or is the showdogs of today really the best dogs in structure for working, of course not.
by anton on 22 October 2010 - 21:10
by anton on 22 October 2010 - 21:10
by Rik on 22 October 2010 - 22:10
johan, this discussion is about w/l with structure as judged against the standard.Structure is judged entirely separate from sport or working ability, which is how Max said it should be judged. And it is not about s/l, which you bring up.
Structure adds no points for sport, is not a determining factor in suitably for work. It is what it is.
proofing is nothing more than the first step (set up by the SV, founded by Max and associates) in identifying dogs that might have potential for work or breeding for work, not proof of the final ability.
You present your preferences for type and you are entitled to them. No one challenges your preference. You make in one statement that structure has no bearing on work and in the next, that only your preference is correct.
You want to see a real live working dog. Meet Clayfield Kid Rock. LE K-9 in Cullman County, Al. 40 years of nothing but very top hi-line American breeding. A real working dog with a real job.
Rik
Structure adds no points for sport, is not a determining factor in suitably for work. It is what it is.
proofing is nothing more than the first step (set up by the SV, founded by Max and associates) in identifying dogs that might have potential for work or breeding for work, not proof of the final ability.
You present your preferences for type and you are entitled to them. No one challenges your preference. You make in one statement that structure has no bearing on work and in the next, that only your preference is correct.
You want to see a real live working dog. Meet Clayfield Kid Rock. LE K-9 in Cullman County, Al. 40 years of nothing but very top hi-line American breeding. A real working dog with a real job.
Rik
by Rik on 23 October 2010 - 03:10
StephanieJ, I really cannot believe that anyone is as stupid as you present yourself. So, I must assume you have an agenda.
When this discussion turned to photo shop and the misrepresenting of GSD in photo, the owner of Bandit presented her dog in photo shop and as correct, and stated clearly the difference.
It is detestable that people present dogs incorrectly. I cannot believe that anyone with any knowledge accepts the pic of the brother as correct. But maybe I give too much credit to human intelligence.
Rick Atchley
When this discussion turned to photo shop and the misrepresenting of GSD in photo, the owner of Bandit presented her dog in photo shop and as correct, and stated clearly the difference.
It is detestable that people present dogs incorrectly. I cannot believe that anyone with any knowledge accepts the pic of the brother as correct. But maybe I give too much credit to human intelligence.
Rick Atchley
by afwark15 on 23 October 2010 - 04:10
Structure is important IMO. I am a working line person and I value my dog's working ability more than anything, but at the same time I feel the make up of the dog needs to be correct, or as correct as it can be.
Schutzhund is not the work the dog was bred to do....it started out as a breeding requirement test. The GSD is a herding dog. This dog needs to be able to run for miles and hours, effortlessly. This in turn helps in other areas of a German Shepherd's "work". Whether it be agility, service dog, Schutzhund....the dog needs to be able to work for long periods of time. Be stable and substantial enough to be an all purpose dog. Correct bone, eyes, etc aid in the dog being able to work without anything interfering.
You wouldn't want the structure to get in the way of the dog's actual working ability.....In other words..when the dog has the desire to work, and is good at it, we want the dog to be able to perform these actual tasks with correct structure!!!
Now don't get me wrong...I am not all for the roach backed frog legged dogs, but I am in COMPLETE agreeance with Jenni78.....
"I think if more people would SHOW dogs who have healthy structure, then perhaps the situation would improve. If black and red roachbacks are all judges ever see, then it's only natural to assume that it's going to lead to a downward spiral where they are graded on a curve. If we continue to shove WL dog in their faces at these shows and display correct, healthy structure, then we might still have hope."
Schutzhund is not the work the dog was bred to do....it started out as a breeding requirement test. The GSD is a herding dog. This dog needs to be able to run for miles and hours, effortlessly. This in turn helps in other areas of a German Shepherd's "work". Whether it be agility, service dog, Schutzhund....the dog needs to be able to work for long periods of time. Be stable and substantial enough to be an all purpose dog. Correct bone, eyes, etc aid in the dog being able to work without anything interfering.
You wouldn't want the structure to get in the way of the dog's actual working ability.....In other words..when the dog has the desire to work, and is good at it, we want the dog to be able to perform these actual tasks with correct structure!!!
Now don't get me wrong...I am not all for the roach backed frog legged dogs, but I am in COMPLETE agreeance with Jenni78.....
"I think if more people would SHOW dogs who have healthy structure, then perhaps the situation would improve. If black and red roachbacks are all judges ever see, then it's only natural to assume that it's going to lead to a downward spiral where they are graded on a curve. If we continue to shove WL dog in their faces at these shows and display correct, healthy structure, then we might still have hope."
If we can show our beautiful working lines and get V structures (and the "kind" of V we want) why shouldn't we?
Amanda
by afwark15 on 23 October 2010 - 04:10
This is my boy, Arko v. eichenluft showing his little heart out 2 weeks ago (Son of Doc v. rex lupus shown above). 11 months old here. Received a rating of VP....very proud of my boy.
Nice conformation with extreme working ability (a nice cuddle bug too) LOL
Amanda
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