What do you see in this vid? - Page 11

@Koots, thank you. I just learned a ton.

That is why I am here on PDB, to learn. :)


Would anyone know, or have a solid guess, if this were to apply to other breeds too? Especially GSD's. or do they not have the A22 gene?

Koots, I am not saying genetics can't be associated with negative behaviors. The key term is behaviors.  My point is how is handler aggression is manifested other than a dog aggressing toward the behavior when corrected?  Does the behavior happen with any correction or is their a threshold where the correction has to be negative enough to illicit the behavior?  Does it happen with e-collar corrections?  Does it happen with verbal corrections?  The behaviors associated with the A22 gene you mentioned has several behaviors associated with it.  I think there is a better explanation for handler aggression and doubt it is a genetic trait.  It could be associated with pain sensitivity which I believe is a genetic trait.  The stimuli that elicit handler aggression are too specific for it to be a trait IMO.

Apple, I have seen dogs become handler aggressive for the most minute things, like, "get in the car" when the dog wanted to continue working or playing.
I have seen it when a toy was taken away from the dog or the dog was denied a treat. I have also seen it during corrections, but, I wanted to mention that I have never had a single instance when I have had a dog become aggressive towards me because of an E collar correction. My last dog would growl at me when I popped him with the prong, never anything beyond that and he was 8 months old at the time. When I started using the E collar, there was never any aggression.

The handler aggression may or may not be genetic, but, the root cause of it is and I believe it greatly depends on the dog.
Some dogs are more sensitive then others, some have a higher tolerance for corrections or fairness during corrections, some will allow a handler to do anything while others have a limit.
Its the unknown that makes me unhappy with some of these dogs, the behavior that comes up suddenly when everything was going well and if allowed to continue, you will find that some dogs will start adding more conditions to it.

Can handler aggression be just plain old 'person aggression', or does it have to be specifically directed at the handler? What about the old-style 'gangster' dogs, are they just dominant dogs?

With the Mals and the A22 gene, I think the genetic research was started to explain the 'unreasonable' behaviours of some dogs. For example, a dog having a 'spaz' when an object is taken from them, and attacking the handler. Or trying to get the dog into the crate and it going up the leash on the handler, not just posturing but actively trying to bite. These are the types of behaviours associated with the Mals and quite likely the A22 gene inheritance.

I am not sure if there is a similar gene with the GSD to explain extreme behaviours, but perhaps there will be research into this as well sometime. I think there is less instance of that type of behaviour in the GSD than the Mal, and hope it stays that way.

Koots, well, handler aggression is person aggression, except in this instance, its towards the person holding the leash and doing the feeding.
You can somewhat understand the dog going after someone that is an unknown, but, when you go after your own handler, different intention and perhaps motivations.

I dont know of any "gangsta dogs", but, dogs 30 years a go were much more "lively" then dogs today for sure.
The gene you describe sounds similar to what spaniels suffer from, a rage that comes on and the dog attacks everyone around them. I have never seen it in a Malinois, but, I saw it in a spaniel once.

apple, i wasn't sarcastic. and why i should be? it's was just logical conclusion from your statement. you are not bad person but quite slow in accepting thoughts, which do not fit into your belief :)

Koots, good to know, scientists eventually found scientific proof to what was known to our predecessors since the time when Earth was flat and had end on the shore of nearest ocean, albeit didn't have even slightest clue about genes.
in regard of A22 in GSDs, they are belong to same kind of canines as malis. difference can be only in spread of that gene through the overall stock due to approach in breeding mating selection.
same apply to dominant trait. if dominance isn't innate trait but developed behavior, then any dog can be taught to be dominant. and indeed, as i mentioned earlier, it's possible but that would be fake dominance in same way as a trained protection to pass required inquiry in sport.
genetic potential and ability to pass it to descendants is a thing why sane breeding started to use mating based on continuity of certain bloodlines.

How do you know it’s genetic? What if pups from this dog you said passed on handler aggression were not trained and never corrected? Do you only see this manifested via a correction? And since it is so rare, I would lean toward other explanations.

 

Seriously? Are you seriously asking that question right now? How do you know anything is genetic. I'm not going to indulge you with this. Because if you want to talk genetics but deny the possibility of behavioral traits passed down, than we can't have that conversation.

You'd have no issues attributing genetics to environmental issues but handler aggression... oh no... can't possibly be genetics.

I never said certain traits are not genetic. Of course they are. I’m saying the term handler aggression is more a specific behavior than a trait and a broader set of behaviors might better define a genetic trait that the behavior of handler aggression falls within.

Can we believe that handler aggression is a manifestation of aggression, period, and that it is simply directed at the person on the end of the leash who is either trying to assert control or prevent dog from doing/having something that it wants? And that in the case of the identified A22 gene in the Malinois, that it definitely does have a genetic cause? So is it so hard to extrapolate that other breeds may have a similar genetic component, even though it may not as yet be identified? Like Hired said, some Spaniels have 'rage' episodes, so maybe they have some type of [A22] gene but it hasn't been researched/identified yet. There is still so much that we DON'T know about genetics that it is not possible for us to confirm or deny genetic links to certain behaviours/traits. And I certainly don't know for sure what is the defining difference between a trait or a genetic inheritance. Do you?

welp, since I'm stuck at home and bored to the max, I,m going to share my only exposure to handler aggression.

this involved a high level trainer/competitor (USA team} 1 or 2 times, not going to look it up.

he needed a new dog, did the tour of Germany with another top level trainer in the US and found the perfect dog.

At the time, he was attempting to start his own club very near my location, so I, of course wanted to be involved.

saw the dog worked many times, and worked by very experienced helpers many times. beautiful dog, social in the regard that I was not scared to be in close proximity to the dog. did not seem dangerous but was pretty violent in work.

went to training one morning, and the owner was chewed up pretty badly on both forearms. he said he was using the e collar on , I think the down, hit it one time too many and the dog came off the ground and he was lucky it wasn't worse.