American x West German showline crosses?

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by sueincc on 05 March 2009 - 15:03

Well, I waded through all the muck! People posted the names of some dogs but except for one, they were all German line dogs. Pretty funny, from there it quickly became a thread about shoulders and backs (talk about avoidance!). Anyways, the long and short of it is apparently Merkel's Opium, a bitch, obtained a schH1 title back in the early 80s. Apparently this is the only Am Line dog in history to be schH titled, at least according to the breeders website. Interestingly enough, in the mid 90's, this breeder switched to West German lines. Here is a link to her website:

http://www.hausmerkel.com/German_Shepherd_Breeders.htm

by Sunsilver on 05 March 2009 - 15:03

Ch Merkel's Opium CD, SchH1

Multi. Int. Ch/SKC Ch. KK1 (Life) V-rated Lbz Valley Oak's Kondor of Arelee, OFA (AKC and ROM points),BH, AD, SchH1, HT, CD, CDX, CACIB, CGC. Breeder: Elaine Hodgin (Go here www.hinterlandgsd.com/kondor.htm to see pedigree...not a German dog in 5 generations!)

Am.CH. Trommels Ivan of Berlindale SchH2 (American lines on one side, DDR lines on the other.)

by 4pack on 05 March 2009 - 15:03

OMG it CAN be done! Let's all run out and get one now!

by Sunsilver on 05 March 2009 - 16:03

Another one - half German, half American:

V Ch Nocturne's Navigator SchH2 CDX NA NAJ AD BH KKL1 CGC "A" OFA DNA

And, going back in time a bit, another 'cross breed'

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/465568.html

by sueincc on 05 March 2009 - 16:03

Kondor is an interesting dog born in the early 90s I think? Was he used much in breeding to other Am Line dogs from other kennels? I see his name but not his pedigree on this database, but if you look up his sire, that pedigree is on the database.

As far as the other dogs, again we are looking for 100% Am Line dogs, not mixed lines.

by Mystere on 05 March 2009 - 18:03

So, apparently, IF the Merkel dog is to be counted, there may have been ONE.

The dog I referenced, General Lee, per the president of the sch club where he was trained, never did get the title. Close, but he did not pass all three phases. She also said that he was NOT entirely American, as there were German dogs "way back" on one side. So, I stand corrected.

Hinterland has been involved in mixing Ambred and German lines for eons. I have not yet looked at the pedigree you posted.

by Mystere on 05 March 2009 - 18:03

Sue,

I checked one of the dogs in Kondor's pedigree and sure enough--GERMAN DOGS BEHIND HIM, TOO! So, we STILL have yet to see a 100% American Line German Shepherd with a Schutzhund title, here.

by Sunsilver on 05 March 2009 - 18:03

OF COURSE if you go back far enough, THEY ARE ALL DESCENDED FROM GERMAN DOGS!

DUH!!!

The pedigree I linked to for Kondor does not show a single German dog in FOUR generations!

IDIOTS!!

by windwalker18 on 05 March 2009 - 19:03

One of the biggest differences I see between show lines (USA or Europe) is that there seems to be a great deal of linebreeding (or inbreeding depending on your definition) in the show lines, but much less in the working lines. Close breedings tend to intensify qualities, both good and bad... and if the breeder's not willing or able to follow their pups and recognize the problems that come up there's gunna be problems.

To take one dog who's inbred on USA show lines, and breed to another who is inbred on completely different European lines you're probably not going to get the qualites that you hoped show up. It also takes a LOT OF RESEARCH AND EXPERIENCE in both genetic pools to know what US line and what German line can/should be combined. That being said, one of the best dogs I ever owned was Hussan's Sweet Audrina, Sire: Hussan Von Wilhendorf and the Dam was a GV>Padachma's Persuasion daughter. She had amazing bone, solid nerves, good conformation, and could have gone in either the show ring or the working field without any problems. BUT her 1st owner bred her once and I can't say that any of her progeny had her steller qualities.

Right now there seem to be a number of Working line dogs who are getting "V" ratings in the show ring. Again it take intensive research and knowledge of bloodlines and progeny to know which working dog/line will add what you feel your show line needs to improve without loosing the qualities you already have.

by Mystere on 05 March 2009 - 19:03

By your "excuse" now that "they all go back to german" then, I guess that means, by your logic, that you now need to shut up about ANY American line dogs getting schutzhund titles, huh? Because they all go back to German eventually? So, who is the idiot?

Fortunately, the more intelligent among us are talking about dogs for whom you can't pick an ancestor at random and find, lo and behold, a German right behind. <sigh>

What is the big problem with you ambred folks that you cannot simply acknowledge the unliklihood of finding American line dogs with schutzhund titles? Hell, I will even give you a better explanation of why that is so: We've only been doing schutzhund in this country since the late 70's. It was heavily influenced by expatriot Germans living in Northern California at the time. Naturally, they, and those following their lead, tended toward German lines and did not really explore the American lines.

Now, see? You can deal with reality and facts, while saving face without defensiveness.

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American x West German showline crosses? - Page 11

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