Training with force? - Page 11

I attended the Gene England School of Such-Platz a number of days back when we were all still cute and fluffy. Like I said... not my favorite way to train, but some dogs need a lot more than cookies to track dependably. When a typically good tracker sits down and gives you the finger (the paw?) its time to put away childish things, like hot dogs, and make it a no-vote excersize. It doesn't usually need to be brutal, or take forever, or involve blood and guts, just firm and resolute: "This is what you're gonna do, Pal"
Like it... don't like it... Your choice... but you ARE going to do it and do it right. End of discussion Darlin' dog....and yes... I do LOVE YOU!

As was pointed out earlier, "Force Training" is a method, not the same as  correcting your dog for not sitting (for example). 

Sue, how is forcing a dog to track, either by pushing his nose down into the track, or zapping with an e-collar when he lifts his head any different from physically forcing your dog to sit?  In my mind, it's the same situation. The dog knows the command, whether 'sitz' or 'such', and he's blowing you off...

With your example of correcting the dog because he is not sitting, the dog learns if he does not sit, he will be corrected.  With force methods, the dog learns the pressure stops and he is in his happy place, only when he is correct.  The dog learns "I must, every time".  This is a way oversimplification of a very specific method of training various behaviors (dumbells and tracking being the most common), but I think it should make it clear one of the biggest differences between the two.  

Oops... You're both sorta right...

Force tracking is basically making everything between the command SUCH and article indication, uh, "unpleasant..." IE: Negative reinforcement. The sooner you (the dog) get to and accurately indicate the article, the better your life is. Tracking with a deep nose is what happens between articles, necessarily for the dog to track accurately and get to/indicate the article. One might think this would encourage the dog to speed up, but it doesn't, because if they go too fast they miss turns, and, more importantly, the article! (Woah is me) The article, absolutely perfectly indicated and no less represents (to the dog) "Peace and Happinesss" in an otherwise cold, cruel and painful world. Force retreive is the same only different. I am so eloquent... not...
Remember negative reinforcement from college psych? Remember the rat on the electric panel that only found release from electricity when it followed a certain path to a predetermined destination (maybe even got a reward) ?
Same thing.
Later, usually not much later for most dogs, and not necessarily with electricity, calm reward is proferred upon appropriate behavior/article indication.

Disclaimer-SL will probably beat me to death for my interpretation of force tracking here, but he spent a billion hours more than me with Gene (a Master) and doubtless explains/understands all this better than I ever will. Most of what I know about tracking came from DC, an undisputed Master in his own right. I just hope I am reinterating the way DC and GE explained it all to me years ago even marginally correctly.

If you really want a good explanation/demonstration, I suggest you go straight to the Masters. :-D
NOT me! LOL

SS

Thank you, Shelly and Sue.  That does make it clear, even if your explanation is not perfect.