Letter from Dr. Heinrich of the WUSV - Page 10

Susie…that’s exactly it. Most dogs aren’t trained like people claim they are. Most don’t train enough to title their dogs. You see pictures of a dog on a sleeve, a short video of a dog focus heeling, a video of a long bite and somehow that equates to “ready for IPO1.” They’ll just keep saying the bitch is ready while they’re selling puppies at $2000 a piece to unknowing people who don’t care and are never going to train or title their own dog…until they do try it and fail and start looking back at the breeding looking for answers as to why their dog lacks drive or ability.

It’s funny that people kick and scream about how much training/titling costs, yet then when their dogs are “ready for IPO1” they can’t find the $75 to enter a trial and prove their training.

Once you stop worrying about the title, you stop training, and then you really don’t know what you have. You take your dog out for a few sessions of bitework, watch it bite a sleeve and claim it can title…yet titling is so much more than that. But who cares when the customers buying the puppies don’t know any better either…

Once you stop worrying about the title, you stop training

@BW i can get down with a lot of your postings but not this one, its too much of a blanket statement. I personally don't care about titling my dog!!! Titles just happen, they fall in your a lap IF you tain and trial enough. I personally like the training and like competing with my dog on the field. I know he has a good pedigree, i know that he is healthy and now my only excuses for failing (like last weekend) is that my training, handling and control has to get better. a title doesnt always have to be the goal. My ultimate goal with this dog is a 90 | 90 | 90 on a IPO3 at a Regional Level.

 

I'm speaking more from a breeder's POV. I know that people still train without a title, but I've just noticed that the moment a breeder says "a title isn't everything" you can almost count the days until they breed their first untitled dog.

And that...more than anything...is why the state of the GSD is what it is in the United States. Everyone thinks they "know" what it takes, but the only people that truly "know" that the dog can do it, is a judge on trial day.

Well, I have heard more than one story about dogs getting midnight trials for their titles, and breeders not only shipping dogs to Germany for that quick title for breeding purposes, and people importing titled dogs that don t know diddly , also from Germany...whats that about...Americans sneaking across the border to do so because only in the USA and by us americans...

Susie, I like you but let's stick to facts. NOBODY says all working line dogs are good except those trying to justify the SL in comparison to WL. How many Regions are there in Germany. In these regions ( I think at least twenty) when you look at the top three dogs or even the top five( 5X20=100) dogs each year in the trials, how many are SL....40%, 30,%, 20%, 05%,???? This is empirical evidence, that can be verified, so if I follow the logic of titles prove working ability, which was plainly intimated although I'm sure figuring WL dogs, when 70 % of the GS in Germany are SL ( two times the WL) how can you justify the total disproportionate amount of SL not present in the 100 in the regions, unless the SL although TITLED is inferior in working ability to the WL. I mean with an overwhelming superiority in numbers, hardly ANYBODY wants to invest time and effort to compete at high level in these trials.(this makes no logical sense unless it's rare for SL to compete at high level even with their titling) I'm not the one always harping on " high levels" as validation of training and quality of breeding, BUT if TITLES are the difference as I am led to believe.....then a high percent of the MAJORITY of dogs(SL), NOT competing at " high levels" reflect that titling has not been the safeguard that is projected here. Like I said, you can't have it both ways, using that straw position that ALL WL aren't this or that is bogus....the reality is the overwhelming majority of SL CANT compete at high levels because of genetics although they are titled and conversely the overwhelming top competitors in (high level) are WL which is only 30 % of the GS in Germany. This is because of genetics, not titles, not training, not trainers, but the genetics of the two lines.
Now if I am wrong, and almost all of the top trainers don't want to use SL even though they are genetically capable, then I will apologize and admit I am out of touch with reality. But if the SL are different in working ability from WL then this has EVOLVED in spite of titling being done.

Look, this is my last post, I think anybody that HAS titled a dog or attended trials clearly knows what the status of both lines are in spite of titles when it comes to working.

The folks who are new to working/sport if they start trialing or join a club will see for themselves and can determine if I am misleading them. 

If folks feel that titles prove working ability , then so be it.

btw, I know you have acknowledged the differences in the two lines before, but bottom line is they both are titled and they both don't reflect working ability in general......soooooo, it is what it is.

You’ve proven my point…no objectivity. You’re more focused on legacy and pedigree than you are about what is in front of you. 25% of your puppies have ED? Guess you should keep going with the line. Dog wasn’t too old to be trained to title when you got him. His papers shouldn’t have had any bearing on your ability to at least train him to that level. If he were ready when the papers finally go there, you would’ve titled him just fine. Instead he probably just sat around as another one of those “great unknowns” who is bred on pedigree and potential rather than anything real.

 

 

LOL, sure, let an entire bloodline go extinct! 

I can be very objective, if it hadn't worked out, it hadn't worked out, but it did work out. 

And every breeder has ED or HD at some point. Show me one breeder that hasn't had any issues whatsoever. So whats with the snarkiness of going "with that line" 

Are you kidding me?

As for papers, it did impact his trialing because I couldn't get him registered in my name without them, therefor I couldn't get a scorebook. 

So yeah, it's not an excuse. 

 

But I seriously don't have to justify myself in front of you. Our bloodline has proven itself more than any other bloodline in this country. Our dogs are still sought after for a reason. I'm not going to let our bloodline down the drain just because someone calling himself Bavarian Wagon thinks it's not "objective". 

 

 

Once you stop worrying about the title, you stop training

 

Nope, once you stop worrying about the title, you actually begin to enjoy your dog and the training. 

 

 

Lol...your bloodline has proven itself more than any other in this country? I counted 4 puppies you've produced...how is that even possible? There's currently a kennel with 3 dogs on the US world team with their blood in them...plenty more in other countries...and you are going to make the statement that your bloodline has done more?!?!? Objectivity is clearly missing.

It's a personal problem if you don't enjoy training because you have a goal of a title.

I'm not asking you to do anything different than what you're doing...I'm just proving how little truth is behind your statements. I'm glad you believe in what you're doing, but the fact remains, removing the minimum requirement of something "as simple" as an IPO1, degrades the working ability of dogs because owners/breeders/handlers lack the ability to be objective about their own dogs.

Gustav...I completely agree that a title doesn't necessarily prove working ability. But it's just a minimum, that's all. You speak of midnight trials and dogs being sent to Germany for a month and coming back with an IPO3...what's the difference between that and not titling at all? There is none. Sure...many people will talk about the work they do in the back yards, or some level of training that is done without proving anything and can provide a few videos or pictures...but those are still not the dogs consistently producing EXCEPTIONAL working/sport prospects.

BW, that's my only point. It takes knowledge and genetics to be successful breeder of working dogs. I do not consider SL breeders in general today to be successful as working dog breeders although their dogs have titles. People like myself, Carmspack, Larry FILO, Loganhaus, and others have been breeding working dogs for many years. Some of our dogs have been titled, many haven't, but we knew they would produce working dogs and their success in SAR, military, LE, and sport attest to it. That doesn't negate sport or sport dogs, or even titled dogs from doing the same....if the genetics and the knowledge to breed working stock is present. But the intent of your breeding ...to me...is much more important than the titles. Just like you use the argument that without titles how can you be sure, I use the same argument that even with titles the majority of SL dog can't handle real work or high sport. There are exceptions on both sides, so I am not denigrating titles, especially on working stock by and large.....but frankly I would not get a puppy from SL parents to be LE dog even if both parents participated in WUSV like Triumph's Guicci.
I agree with a lot of what you and Susie say, but I don't agree that titles trump the intent of the breeder in producing working dogs.....whether titled or untitled.jmo.