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by vonissk on 27 November 2012 - 00:11
Hans very good posts as always. I agree that everyone that breeds shouldlearn how to read xrays. And as far as costs my vet too charges a big difference between just taking a shot for a "look see" and doing the whole 9 yards and sending them in. Just consider the source and go on. You are doing a great job....................
by hexe on 27 November 2012 - 01:11
But, if this is where the subject is going to play out, I suppose I'll pull up my waders and head on into the murky pond.
Hans, if there's that much difference in cost, maybe you need a new vet. The only additional fee I've ever paid to have hips & elbows x-rayed for OFA submission is the cost of the postage for mailing the x-rays, and the fee to OFA--and yes, I've had dogs x-rayed recently. My bitch was just done a little over 2 weeks ago, and those were sent to OFA, for no other reason than to continue the data stream for her sire and dam and her breeder--I had her spayed, as I had no intention of breeding her to begin with. The senior male I adopted last fall was x-rayed in early summer of this year, but I didn't bother sending them to OFA because he's a rescue of unknown breeding...I just wanted to know the status of his hips & elbows for the dog's benefit and health. The only difference in the two bills was no postage fee for the male; the OFA fee for the bitch was paid directly to OFA, so I don't count that in the vet's fees.
Disclaimer--the practice I use is a small-town, combined large & small animal practice, so they're still using the 'old fashioned' method of actual film and chemical processing; I did have digital films done for a different bitch a several years back, at a different practice, and recognize that the charge for them does tend to be slightly more, and the vet may charge a fee for submitting them since it has to be done directly from the practice to OFA. Additionally, I don't work for a veterinary practice, and haven't done so for many years now, so I am NOT getting any sort of employee or 'professional' discount from the practice that cares for my animals. I get charged the same prices as anyone else who does business with this practice.
Of course, I fill out the paperwork and bring it with me when I take the dog in for the x-ray, so the only thing the vet has to do is sign off in the appropriate areas of the two OFA forms, check a few boxes and write in the type of chemical restraint used. I would expect if you make your vet fill out the paperwork for OFA, you'll be paying an additional charge for that, but those are the kinds of charges I consider to be a 'laziness tax'. Do it yourself and save that extra fee.
So you don't trust OFA's read? Fine--submit your films to the SV instead, or some other evaluation & certification organization--can you submit them to the Czech kennel club, if you're a member of that? If you can prove your claim that three copies of the same film from the same dog were submitted on three different occasions to OFA and received three different gradings, I think you really should pursue that with the AVMA, OFA and the American College of Veterinary Radiology, because that kind of thing certainly would cast aspersions on the integrity of the certifications and the organization itself. If I had a nickel for every time I've heard this urban legend, I'd be much, much closer to retirement than the 15 years I'm looking at in recent economic conditions.Strangely enough, no one has ever been able to actually produce the documentation of this tale of three ratings...
If the dog is given a bad rating due to bad positioning, poor image quality or shoddy film development, then the owner needs to insist the vet re-do the films and resubmit them. That's pretty simple, and it's not OFA's fault if crappy films are submitted to them--they can only read what they SEE, and they can only SEE what they're SENT.
Here's the problems with having YOU read the x-rays:
1. You're not a radiologist. If OFA requires three different radiologists to read an x-ray, and you claim that an excessive number of films are misread by them, how on Earth would a single, non-radiologist--you--be in any imaginable capacity MORE reliable in the reading? Are you suggesting that the radiologists' eyes are fatigued from viewing so many images, perhaps, and your 'fresh eyes' are less likely to err in the read?
2. Your assessment carries absolutely NO legal veracity, thus regardless of what you say, if push came to shove in a court of law, the dog would not be considered to be free of hip or elbow dysplasia. Period.
It's more 'honest' to post the 'actual x-rays' on the web for everyone to see? Really? How is there ANY assurance whatsoever that the radiographs posted ACTUALLY are those of that particular dog? Your vet has put nothing on the line certifying the he or she has verified the permanent ID of the dog being x-rayed and compared that to the dog's registration paperwork or microchip record--they're just going by who you tell them the dog is, and if you're not being truthful with them, they don't have their license on the line, nor their OFA submission privileges.
I AM NOT suggesting that you have done any such thing, because while I don't agree with your point of view, I also have no reason to suspect you've perpetrated fraud. I am merely elaborating as to why I consider 'self-reading' of radiographs to be as valid an assessment as not having the dog's hips and/or elbows even checked. It's right up there with the perennial favorite, "I KNOW my dog's hips are good, because s/he doesn't 'bunny-hop' when running/can jump over a 6' high fence/has a straight back/doesn't have that extreme angulation/is never lame". It's not an assessment I'd hang my hat on, or purchase a dog based upon.
[Edited to make sure it's clear that in no way am I insinuating, suggesting or saying that Hans/Prager/Alpine K9 has misrepresented the identity of any dog or any x-ray. Just to be sure nobody gets that twisted.]
by Jenni78 on 27 November 2012 - 01:11
I'm confused. Does Hans or does Hans not say he DOES use OFA? I thought he just bluntly admits he does it to pacify the masses, not because he feels he needs it. Big difference between not buying into it hook, line, and sinker and not certifying at all. I just briefly looked at OFA's site and found a few of Hans' personal dogs, young bitches, are certified, and with all good and excellent as far as I saw.
by beetree on 27 November 2012 - 01:11
He said he only trusts himself. The "masses" well, they only think they want to use what tools are available to them. Funny how you see it as irrelevant. Big difference, yep.
Hexe, I'm so glad you put on your waders and gave the board another excellent post.
Hexe, I'm so glad you put on your waders and gave the board another excellent post.
by hexe on 27 November 2012 - 01:11
Jenni--Go back and re-read his earlier post: he OFA's SOME of his dogs because his customers want it, but some of his dogs he does NOT OFA, I'm presuming because either he's not using those dogs for breeding, or because the customers for the offspring of those dogs don't care/don't ask for it. That part wasn't quite clear. If he's not doing OFA on non-breeding dogs, that's a different story, because the majority of people with dogs don't bother even doing an x-ray at all if they don't plan on breeding them, let alone doing OFA. Sure, it's really helpful when every pup in the litter is OFA'd, it gives a better 'big picture' view of the hip genetics [though still not an absolute], but if the best one can get is uncertified films that look good to the vet who took the x-rays [and the owner of those dogs] it's more info than is generally available.
So, which is it, Hans? No OFA unless you're using the dog for breeding, or is there some other criteria you use to determine which ones you will OFA, and which ones you won't?
So, which is it, Hans? No OFA unless you're using the dog for breeding, or is there some other criteria you use to determine which ones you will OFA, and which ones you won't?
by Blitzen on 27 November 2012 - 01:11
Hexe. No certification, no sale in my world.by Jenni78 on 27 November 2012 - 01:11
Beetree, it will be a cold day in hell before you really understand the way I "see" anything.
Forgive me for just reading the man's words and looking at the OFA website and seeing that he has personal dogs who are certified and drawing logical conclusions from that. Sometimes, I forget where I am.
Forgive me for just reading the man's words and looking at the OFA website and seeing that he has personal dogs who are certified and drawing logical conclusions from that. Sometimes, I forget where I am.
by beetree on 27 November 2012 - 01:11
I think I bother you because I understand more than you care to admit.
by GSD Admin on 27 November 2012 - 01:11
Or not. lol
by beetree on 27 November 2012 - 01:11
Try me. LOL
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