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by wrestleman on 02 June 2010 - 21:06
Every thing that Bob said is true. Years ago there where some great showline dogs that could work and produce but that was 30 plus years ago. Anyone who watches the bite work from the Seiger shows here and think that they are seeing good bite work know nothing about working dogs.
Maggie name the show line dogs who work as well as the working line dogs. They are not being shown and titled here and look at the working results from the BSP, the AWD, USA , or what ever and where are these show line dogs at..
30 years ago when the division wasn't there you had Dogs Like Dingo v h gero and Mutz , etc that produced dogs that worked You will not find that today....The division started over the $ pretty dogs sold to countries who didn't care about work.
Maggie name the show line dogs who work as well as the working line dogs. They are not being shown and titled here and look at the working results from the BSP, the AWD, USA , or what ever and where are these show line dogs at..
30 years ago when the division wasn't there you had Dogs Like Dingo v h gero and Mutz , etc that produced dogs that worked You will not find that today....The division started over the $ pretty dogs sold to countries who didn't care about work.
by MaggieMae on 02 June 2010 - 21:06
Wrestleman -- so why are you addressing your comments to me? I agreed with what Keith said. But since you addressed me, I will "talk your talk" --
My Dog would go for your dog's throat, then tear his a$$ up -- he would use one of your dog's ribs as a toothpick when finished.
Seriouly, how many times has this subject been beaten into the ground. You like Working Lines; I like Show Lines. Supply/Demand -- most people prefer and purchase Show Line dogs. We will just have to agree to disagree.
My Dog would go for your dog's throat, then tear his a$$ up -- he would use one of your dog's ribs as a toothpick when finished.
Seriouly, how many times has this subject been beaten into the ground. You like Working Lines; I like Show Lines. Supply/Demand -- most people prefer and purchase Show Line dogs. We will just have to agree to disagree.
by Mystere on 02 June 2010 - 22:06
Wrestleman,
There is no dispute that there is a difference--as Keith acknowledges. Anyone who has actually been involved in training, simply seen schutzhund training, or even a single trial, understands what is being discussed. You are correct: before the Martin Brothers and the "big schism," there were no show line/working line discussions. There weren't two "camps." There are now, and the schism will probably never be breached.
By sheer volume, there are more show line dogs. That is a simple fact. Show line puppies have always cost more, two to three times more. There is MONEY in those lines. There is, accordingly, more marketing and placing in pet homes. How many working line breeders ever have multiple litters on the ground, for example (we will ignore the anomalies with kamps
)? The majority of the John Q. Public population doesn't even realize that a sable gsd is a gsd--marketing has led them to believe that gsds are all red & black. It's called ignorance, or simply uneducated, when it involves wines, art, and classical music.
Bud and Johhny Walker are in more American homes than Glenfiddich or Glen Livet, not to mention Dom P. That doesn't make Bud and JW better, just more common.
There is no dispute that there is a difference--as Keith acknowledges. Anyone who has actually been involved in training, simply seen schutzhund training, or even a single trial, understands what is being discussed. You are correct: before the Martin Brothers and the "big schism," there were no show line/working line discussions. There weren't two "camps." There are now, and the schism will probably never be breached.
By sheer volume, there are more show line dogs. That is a simple fact. Show line puppies have always cost more, two to three times more. There is MONEY in those lines. There is, accordingly, more marketing and placing in pet homes. How many working line breeders ever have multiple litters on the ground, for example (we will ignore the anomalies with kamps
)? The majority of the John Q. Public population doesn't even realize that a sable gsd is a gsd--marketing has led them to believe that gsds are all red & black. It's called ignorance, or simply uneducated, when it involves wines, art, and classical music. Bud and Johhny Walker are in more American homes than Glenfiddich or Glen Livet, not to mention Dom P. That doesn't make Bud and JW better, just more common.
by MaggieMae on 02 June 2010 - 23:06
I appreciate beauty -- thus, I appreciate the beauty and intelligence of the magestic Red/Black Show Line. People just have different preferences. This is a never-ending discussion -- it all depends on what a person likes/dislikes and that is OK.
by ShelleyR on 04 June 2010 - 03:06
I prefer... both.
by Phil Behun on 04 June 2010 - 13:06
I'll be there today to watch the "Performance Test", I'll be the one giggling. Uh oh, the pretty "working" dogs are going to get wet once again. Thunder and lightening should make this fun, then again it's always fun watching the showlines pretend to work.
by Mystere on 04 June 2010 - 13:06
I spoke with the show secretary a couple days ago and there was concern expressed about the thunder storms. Personally, I MISS the thunderstorms in the Midwest. We get lots of showers and rain here, but thunderstorms are so uncommon that any photographed lightening actually makes the front page!! LOL
All the dogs should handle any thunder booms fine--they passed the gunshot tests, after all.
by VonIsengard on 04 June 2010 - 14:06
Keith, Tess, Shelly, Mystere- you're ALL right. 99% of showline owners/breeders don't do squat with them. How many have more than one SchH3 in their scorebook? There are some really great showline dogs dogs out there- and a lot of crappers. But the same can be said for workinglines.
If someone breeding workinglines wants to be very successful, they MUST put in the work- or no one will look twice at their dogs. So of course they receive vastly superior training.
But as I've said a thousand times- don't write the showlines off as garbage. Despite of weak training and breeding based on physical characteristics, some very strong dog dogs have still come through. Then again I can repeat myself like a broken record and list all the phenomenal showline dogs I have known, but it really won't matter. Those who feel these lines are too far gone will never believe me anyway.
Anyway, I'm off to Lake Geneva. I'm sure I'll see the same thing I see every year, where only a small handful of dogs display the combination of strength of character and correct training. I'm sure I'll leave disgusted and pissed off like I usually do, but I'll point out my frustration is not directed at the dogs, rather the community that seems to not care that their dogs are a joke, and have no interest in changing that viewpoint whatsoever.
And by the way: the "teeh-hee-I-like-pretty-dogs" mentality is NOT helping.
If someone breeding workinglines wants to be very successful, they MUST put in the work- or no one will look twice at their dogs. So of course they receive vastly superior training.
But as I've said a thousand times- don't write the showlines off as garbage. Despite of weak training and breeding based on physical characteristics, some very strong dog dogs have still come through. Then again I can repeat myself like a broken record and list all the phenomenal showline dogs I have known, but it really won't matter. Those who feel these lines are too far gone will never believe me anyway.
Anyway, I'm off to Lake Geneva. I'm sure I'll see the same thing I see every year, where only a small handful of dogs display the combination of strength of character and correct training. I'm sure I'll leave disgusted and pissed off like I usually do, but I'll point out my frustration is not directed at the dogs, rather the community that seems to not care that their dogs are a joke, and have no interest in changing that viewpoint whatsoever.
And by the way: the "teeh-hee-I-like-pretty-dogs" mentality is NOT helping.
by Phil Behun on 04 June 2010 - 14:06
The comparison can not even be made. You are talking about "barely" a handful of show line dogs that can "barely" do the work at a top level. Name the dogs at the National "Working" Championships of any country that are even in the Top 10. The percentages are severely skewed in the favor of the working bred dogs.
by eichenluft on 04 June 2010 - 14:06
Phil, please bring a video camera and film! I hope someone has the cajones to do this, if they are going to watch anyway, bring a camera!!!
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