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by Rexy on 07 December 2009 - 18:12
I have German showline male in Australia bred from Nilson vom Wildsteiger land line bred on Kimon van Dan Alhedy's Heove with a bitch line, line bred on Uran is a good dog, good drives, quite high in civil aggression, great bite and hard nerve, no handler aggression. He's a big dog and a bit slow and clumsy compared with a good working line, but lacks nothing in protection phase, a good jumper and workable dog and good tracker. He's not the best dog, but have plenty of working lines behind him at club level. I would prefer a working line taking competition to a higher level, but for what we do, he works very well.
by steve1 on 08 December 2009 - 14:12
I can tell you Guys this and it applies to every one of you, It matters not what line the dog is, It matters not whether it is a high drive Schutzund Dog or a Showline that lacks any drive,
If you own a Dog from an 8 week old Puppy then if you have any common sense any idea at all of how to bring a dog up then it can be bought up in a house or an outdoor kennel, it is how you bring up and teach it as a puppy
As i said i know several Top Schutzund Dogs who have competed in the WUSV and Belgian Championships they are some of the best in the country and they live in the house with the owner and families children and all and why not they do not have two heads
I know Police Dogs who live in the House with the Families there is no difference to a high drive Schutzund dog when it is in its home environment it lives an ordinary life like any other Dog, It is only when it is in different surrounding that it knows it is going to work that the drive side comes in
But if a dog bought up from a Pup to live with the Humans and no amount of Schutzund work will change it,
Now i know many of these such dogs that are living as normal house hold pets and why should they not do so I have visted the houses and been greeted as normal by the Dogs, but get that Dog on the work field and the drive comes up
Now one other thing a lot of you people like Maggie think Schutzund is all to do with biting a sleeve that is pure nonsense
It is only one part of three phases, the other two parts and PROTECTION is based on Obedience plain and simple take note, for without that high degree of obedience the dog will FAIL as a Schutzund Performer and that is taught and i stilled in the dog at an early age, It amazes me on how some folk look at the Schuzund Sport as a whole i am beginning to wonder about some on this forum they are so bloody naive and mis informed
a huge amount of you people over in the USA think a Dog should live in the House and then most live in a Crate best part of the time and I ask you this because my dogs do not live in the house because i think they are healthier out doors and 60 years of keeping dogs tell me that much, but it has nothing to do with a dog being a couch potato or a high drive dog i will bring it up to adapt to where i want it to live and one last thing the dogs i am refering to above DO not live in a crate in the house they have free run of the downstairs they have a basket to sleep in and they know where it is
Now do not ask me to name names because that is unacceptable for i know some of the People do not even look on Dog forums, and if they did the names would not be bought up, for i know some wag will ask but the answer is no, but you take my word for it being true for i have no need or reason to lie that does me or anyone else any good to do so
One last thing You Guys over there in the USA look at the Sport and the way of life for dogs differently and to dogs on the whole that most do over here,
When i am at the Dog Clubs i do not hear the talk about Conformation, your dog is a better or the colour is weaker than that dog, a lot of you Guys are obsessed with these things, look at the amount of threads on it
Over here a really good Breeder does the things he considers best for the Breed, the Dogs and the Customers
Firstly the Dog must perform in the Schutzund Sport very well, it must gain its titles with the highest scores possible not just passing scores, It must have top grade Hips and Elbows, It must get a good show rating It must pass the AD test and it must be Korclassed KKL1 or 11, and it must have a good sound background and pedigree
Now if a dog has these credentials i would say it is a very well balanced animal and i know dogs such as these live with the Family in the house without a Crate but a basket to sleep in
If you own a Dog from an 8 week old Puppy then if you have any common sense any idea at all of how to bring a dog up then it can be bought up in a house or an outdoor kennel, it is how you bring up and teach it as a puppy
As i said i know several Top Schutzund Dogs who have competed in the WUSV and Belgian Championships they are some of the best in the country and they live in the house with the owner and families children and all and why not they do not have two heads
I know Police Dogs who live in the House with the Families there is no difference to a high drive Schutzund dog when it is in its home environment it lives an ordinary life like any other Dog, It is only when it is in different surrounding that it knows it is going to work that the drive side comes in
But if a dog bought up from a Pup to live with the Humans and no amount of Schutzund work will change it,
Now i know many of these such dogs that are living as normal house hold pets and why should they not do so I have visted the houses and been greeted as normal by the Dogs, but get that Dog on the work field and the drive comes up
Now one other thing a lot of you people like Maggie think Schutzund is all to do with biting a sleeve that is pure nonsense
It is only one part of three phases, the other two parts and PROTECTION is based on Obedience plain and simple take note, for without that high degree of obedience the dog will FAIL as a Schutzund Performer and that is taught and i stilled in the dog at an early age, It amazes me on how some folk look at the Schuzund Sport as a whole i am beginning to wonder about some on this forum they are so bloody naive and mis informed
a huge amount of you people over in the USA think a Dog should live in the House and then most live in a Crate best part of the time and I ask you this because my dogs do not live in the house because i think they are healthier out doors and 60 years of keeping dogs tell me that much, but it has nothing to do with a dog being a couch potato or a high drive dog i will bring it up to adapt to where i want it to live and one last thing the dogs i am refering to above DO not live in a crate in the house they have free run of the downstairs they have a basket to sleep in and they know where it is
Now do not ask me to name names because that is unacceptable for i know some of the People do not even look on Dog forums, and if they did the names would not be bought up, for i know some wag will ask but the answer is no, but you take my word for it being true for i have no need or reason to lie that does me or anyone else any good to do so
One last thing You Guys over there in the USA look at the Sport and the way of life for dogs differently and to dogs on the whole that most do over here,
When i am at the Dog Clubs i do not hear the talk about Conformation, your dog is a better or the colour is weaker than that dog, a lot of you Guys are obsessed with these things, look at the amount of threads on it
Over here a really good Breeder does the things he considers best for the Breed, the Dogs and the Customers
Firstly the Dog must perform in the Schutzund Sport very well, it must gain its titles with the highest scores possible not just passing scores, It must have top grade Hips and Elbows, It must get a good show rating It must pass the AD test and it must be Korclassed KKL1 or 11, and it must have a good sound background and pedigree
Now if a dog has these credentials i would say it is a very well balanced animal and i know dogs such as these live with the Family in the house without a Crate but a basket to sleep in
by MaggieMae on 08 December 2009 - 15:12
Steve -- I have never stated that Schutzhund is ALL about biting the sleeve. If anything, a lot of the people who do this sport seem to be the ones who think it is the BE ALL / END ALL -- videos of sleeve biting set to some "edgy music" -- whoo hoo.
I gather that you did NOT read the article that I posted above? It is very informative -- one of the best I've read. Please take the time to do so.
www.germandogtrainingcenter.com/what-is-temperament.php
by sueincc on 08 December 2009 - 17:12
Well said Steve. 
Just one other thing, if you were to come to the USA and visit, you would be pleasantly surprised because you would find the talk at most schutzhund clubs here is the same as what you hear in Belgium. What you read being discussed on these boards regarding conformation and color has nothing to do with what is going on at schutzhund clubs in this country. After all, we do somehow manage to field some very successful teams for FCI Worlds, and WUSV every year, and these team members come from our club programs. If the same percentage of club members were as obsessed with color and conformation as those who post on this message board, we would never be able to field the highly competitive and serious team members that we do year after year, when it comes to international level competitions.
Just one other thing, if you were to come to the USA and visit, you would be pleasantly surprised because you would find the talk at most schutzhund clubs here is the same as what you hear in Belgium. What you read being discussed on these boards regarding conformation and color has nothing to do with what is going on at schutzhund clubs in this country. After all, we do somehow manage to field some very successful teams for FCI Worlds, and WUSV every year, and these team members come from our club programs. If the same percentage of club members were as obsessed with color and conformation as those who post on this message board, we would never be able to field the highly competitive and serious team members that we do year after year, when it comes to international level competitions.
by MaggieMae on 08 December 2009 - 17:12
Steve stated above -
"It matters not what line the dog is, It matters not whether it is a high drive Schutzund Dog or a Showline that lacks any drive,
If you own a Dog from an 8 week old Puppy then if you have any common sense any idea at all of how to bring a dog up then it can be bought up in a house or an outdoor kennel, it is how you bring up and teach it as a puppy"
The article I posted stated otherwise - www.germandogtrainingcenter.com/what-is-temperament.php
Quote from the article -- "If I only had a dollar for every time somone has told me "It's all how they're raised!"... No it's not. It's all in how their DNA came together. A dog with a foul termperment will always be a dog with a foul temperment, no matter how wonderful the environment. A dog with sound, stable termperment will always be a sound, stabe dog, even in a lousy enrironment."
The article also states "A dog's core temperment never changes."
"It matters not what line the dog is, It matters not whether it is a high drive Schutzund Dog or a Showline that lacks any drive,
If you own a Dog from an 8 week old Puppy then if you have any common sense any idea at all of how to bring a dog up then it can be bought up in a house or an outdoor kennel, it is how you bring up and teach it as a puppy"
The article I posted stated otherwise - www.germandogtrainingcenter.com/what-is-temperament.php
Quote from the article -- "If I only had a dollar for every time somone has told me "It's all how they're raised!"... No it's not. It's all in how their DNA came together. A dog with a foul termperment will always be a dog with a foul temperment, no matter how wonderful the environment. A dog with sound, stable termperment will always be a sound, stabe dog, even in a lousy enrironment."
The article also states "A dog's core temperment never changes."
by Slamdunc on 08 December 2009 - 18:12
Nature and nurture both play a critical part in the development of a puppy. I believe a puppy inherits about 60% from the mother and that is due in part to the genetics and how the mother and breeder raises the pups. How the breeder interacts with the young dogs absolutely affects the dog's temperament. You can't base everything on one article read on the internet.
With that said, a dog with a poor or sharp temperamnet whether from genetics or environment can have it's behavior modified. You can change the behavior, but you can't change the nature. The underlying issue will always be there. I believe that the environment the dog is raised in is almost as important as genetics.
JMO,
Jim
by sueincc on 08 December 2009 - 18:12
You don't get it.
What does a foul tempered dog have to do with high drive top competition dogs? A shitter is a shitter maggs, a poorly bred dog is a poorly bred dog. We aren't talking about poorly bred freaks here. Yes, there can be dogs with crap temperaments IN BOTH SHOW AND WORKING LINES - that has nothing to do with the overwhelming majority of high drive top sport dogs. No one has suggested that a schizoid dog can be trained out of bad temperament. If you don't believe training and raising has anything to do with how a dog ultimately turns out then you don't know anything about dogs. . I guarantee you, since you couldn't even handle your own show line dog as a puppy, and you had to send the puppy away for training, most working line puppies indeed would have walked all over you and made you their bitch. That's not the fault of the dog Maggs, that's because you don't have what it takes to train a strong dog. Just because you are inept does not mean the rest of us should be penalized.
Once again this is a case of you finding something on the Internet that you think matches your own uninformed opinion, you think it somehow proves your point, which it doesn't as usual. In fact if you read the whole article and understand it, it pretty much backs up what the rest of us are trying to tell you. This is what you do, the same as when you read that crackpot's website about how police dogs are mistreated, you harped on that one like a bitch with a bone too. You hold on to your uninformed opinions like they are some kind of prize.
What does a foul tempered dog have to do with high drive top competition dogs? A shitter is a shitter maggs, a poorly bred dog is a poorly bred dog. We aren't talking about poorly bred freaks here. Yes, there can be dogs with crap temperaments IN BOTH SHOW AND WORKING LINES - that has nothing to do with the overwhelming majority of high drive top sport dogs. No one has suggested that a schizoid dog can be trained out of bad temperament. If you don't believe training and raising has anything to do with how a dog ultimately turns out then you don't know anything about dogs. . I guarantee you, since you couldn't even handle your own show line dog as a puppy, and you had to send the puppy away for training, most working line puppies indeed would have walked all over you and made you their bitch. That's not the fault of the dog Maggs, that's because you don't have what it takes to train a strong dog. Just because you are inept does not mean the rest of us should be penalized.
Once again this is a case of you finding something on the Internet that you think matches your own uninformed opinion, you think it somehow proves your point, which it doesn't as usual. In fact if you read the whole article and understand it, it pretty much backs up what the rest of us are trying to tell you. This is what you do, the same as when you read that crackpot's website about how police dogs are mistreated, you harped on that one like a bitch with a bone too. You hold on to your uninformed opinions like they are some kind of prize.
by MaggieMae on 08 December 2009 - 18:12
Sue - You just don't "Get It." Why don't you get up from the chair and waddle your Fat Ass away from the computer. Everytime I post, you are right there "stalking me." Other than Hans, and some other Posters, I do get a chuckle from some of the self-proclaimed "experts" -- such as you. Get a damn life.
NOTE: It is also amusing that you always "parrot" Jim's posts. Have you ever had an original thought in your head -- other than the filthy words that come out of your obnoxious mouth?
by sueincc on 08 December 2009 - 18:12
I know it's hard for you maggs, I apologize, I should know better than to make fun of the handicapped.
by steve1 on 08 December 2009 - 18:12
Maggie
A Top Schutzund Dog is nothing else but a stable Dog in every sense of the word, The temperament of such dogs is not in question, They are stable there back ground is stable,and do not believe every thing you read in articles
If you bring up a child wrong then it is very much that it will be that way in its life time , that is a rearing process and dogs are no different It is the things which are imprinted at an early age which counts a lot in later life,
So you say it is all in the Genes, so a Murderers Children will be the same way inclined as the wrong doer Parent, another case If the Parents are thieves then the Children will be thieves You say that is in the Genes or the article you read tells you it is and you believe it
How silly some can be
Take the Children of Thieving Parents for instance, If they are bought up by the Parents Yes, they probably would turn out Thieves,
But if they were reared by good Loving people from an early age and a stable home they would more likely turn out to be good living people
It is the way they are raised which is the deciding factor Just the same as a small Puppy you treat it bad, you Do it wrong hit and abuse it then in all probability the Pup will turn out to be an aggressive unstable Dog,
But you rear it right there is no problem in most cases There is always the exception in everything, But it does not all come from the genes
But never the less you are saying that a High Drive Schutzund Dog cannot live in a house with a family and live an ordinary life It certainly can and is proving so now in a lot of homes over here, and also in the USA i expect as well. As for yourself with this type of Dog you have the wrong idea, Perhaps because you do not understand how they are and what makes them tick so to speak you maybe are frightened by them,
But by the way you talk you have certainly have not been around many, according to the way you see them
As you said elsewhere on another thread you are a Show line Person, thats fair enough but you cannot knock what you do not really know and understand about,
Take me, I know nothing about Show lines so i would be stupid to say i do or argue about them, i would look a right Prat
As for reading Articles no i do not, I prefer to work among the best there is in the country that i live in What i see goes on with my own eyes i can believe in real life, Not words from someone else who is probably making money out of it at the same time, If i read a book on German Shepherds i do it for enjoyment only not to learn anything, as i say i have the best people in the country there is in real life for that purpose when i need advice or help
Steve1
It is never likely we two people will agree on any subject we have not to date but what is said by some on here is completely wrong that the Top Schutzund Dogs cannot live in a family environment, By saying they cannot puts them in a very bad light with people looking in and not up with the breed in other words it gives them a bad name and that is unfair that is what this really is all about, I have said it twice now i do not need to repeat it again
And Maggie, I do not profess to be an expert and a wonder man, But on the other hand i have trained many breeds of dogs to a high degree of Obedinence over the course of 60 years and am no fool with them ethier, and the standard of Obed my 6.6 month old Pup is now showing is far beyond her age, and she has a huge drive in her more than i have seen in a puppy for many years, but saying that she is an intelligent well balanced Puppy mentally and can switch off the drive as easy as it comes, and she will go far in the Schutzund Sport, watch this space for that is something i would not normally say
Steve1
A Top Schutzund Dog is nothing else but a stable Dog in every sense of the word, The temperament of such dogs is not in question, They are stable there back ground is stable,and do not believe every thing you read in articles
If you bring up a child wrong then it is very much that it will be that way in its life time , that is a rearing process and dogs are no different It is the things which are imprinted at an early age which counts a lot in later life,
So you say it is all in the Genes, so a Murderers Children will be the same way inclined as the wrong doer Parent, another case If the Parents are thieves then the Children will be thieves You say that is in the Genes or the article you read tells you it is and you believe it
How silly some can be
Take the Children of Thieving Parents for instance, If they are bought up by the Parents Yes, they probably would turn out Thieves,
But if they were reared by good Loving people from an early age and a stable home they would more likely turn out to be good living people
It is the way they are raised which is the deciding factor Just the same as a small Puppy you treat it bad, you Do it wrong hit and abuse it then in all probability the Pup will turn out to be an aggressive unstable Dog,
But you rear it right there is no problem in most cases There is always the exception in everything, But it does not all come from the genes
But never the less you are saying that a High Drive Schutzund Dog cannot live in a house with a family and live an ordinary life It certainly can and is proving so now in a lot of homes over here, and also in the USA i expect as well. As for yourself with this type of Dog you have the wrong idea, Perhaps because you do not understand how they are and what makes them tick so to speak you maybe are frightened by them,
But by the way you talk you have certainly have not been around many, according to the way you see them
As you said elsewhere on another thread you are a Show line Person, thats fair enough but you cannot knock what you do not really know and understand about,
Take me, I know nothing about Show lines so i would be stupid to say i do or argue about them, i would look a right Prat
As for reading Articles no i do not, I prefer to work among the best there is in the country that i live in What i see goes on with my own eyes i can believe in real life, Not words from someone else who is probably making money out of it at the same time, If i read a book on German Shepherds i do it for enjoyment only not to learn anything, as i say i have the best people in the country there is in real life for that purpose when i need advice or help
Steve1
It is never likely we two people will agree on any subject we have not to date but what is said by some on here is completely wrong that the Top Schutzund Dogs cannot live in a family environment, By saying they cannot puts them in a very bad light with people looking in and not up with the breed in other words it gives them a bad name and that is unfair that is what this really is all about, I have said it twice now i do not need to repeat it again
And Maggie, I do not profess to be an expert and a wonder man, But on the other hand i have trained many breeds of dogs to a high degree of Obedinence over the course of 60 years and am no fool with them ethier, and the standard of Obed my 6.6 month old Pup is now showing is far beyond her age, and she has a huge drive in her more than i have seen in a puppy for many years, but saying that she is an intelligent well balanced Puppy mentally and can switch off the drive as easy as it comes, and she will go far in the Schutzund Sport, watch this space for that is something i would not normally say
Steve1
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