Look GARD, it's a real dog!!! - Page 10

I never did not say the Dog was untrainable, Most are, But at that particular point the dog was not in control of its nerves, Of course the dog can be trained by someone who knows what they are doing I am not talking about that and never did I was talking At what the handler was expecting the Dog to do at that time and that was to Bark and Guard Nothing more and nothing less, But it went straight in And you know as well as i do that the Dogs actions are the responsibility of the Handler it all comes down to the Handler, We are the ones to ask or expect the dog to do as we want
Overall the dog is the subject of all these posts But really we should all be talking about the Merits of the Helper and Handler, But i guess then we would all agree that they were rubbish and the thread would have turned the page long ago
Steve

Steve, I just don't get where you keep saying that the dog was not in control of it's nerves.  The nerves of the dog had nothing to do with what was going on in that video.  What the dog was not in control of was it's behavior, not it's nerves.  The hold and bark is an obedience exercise taught by us for a specific purpose.  In this particular case, there was no hold and bark but a search and grip.  Did the dog grip because he has nerves that are so weak that he can't stand in front of the man and control himself to just bark and not bite?  Don't think so, look at the first rep of the exercise.  The dog did bark with the support system of the leash.  You would see the nerve issue, if there was one, in the first rep as well.  Dogs that can't handle the pressure of standing in front of the man usually are unsure in their position, bouncing in and out, back and forth, and when the sleeve/prey is presented they strike forward hard but in many cases after a slight hesitation.  The hold and bark has become a very telling exercise these days with many judges placing a lot of emphasis on how the dog guards in front of the man for extended periods.  We were not made privy to such performance in this video.  The dog was not asked to perform extended guarding under pressure or strong presence from the helper.  This video showed one thing, steps were being jumped, they were driving 80 miles and hour with a beginning driver instead of driving 15 miles an hour and teaching proper skills.  The nerves of the dog were not the reason for the problem, the complacent training was.  If it were a question of weak nerves, the dog probably would have held the handle grip on the sleeve or even possibly let go but tried to avoid the threat or striking of the stick, backing straight away or circling away to the handler's left.  The release of the grip and coming forward to the threat and the fact that the dog stayed persistent and hung on to the man's arm says weak nerves were not the problem.  The handling was lax, the helper was going through the motions, even the spectators were not paying attention.  Just another day at training,,,,,,,,,who's next??  Get your dog so we can get out of here.  

The first take was of bark and Guard, and that also was the intention the second time aroung but without the line on but it did not work
 You do not get get a search and grip in the hide in a Schutzund competition or do you do it in training, so what do you know
When ever a Scurzund Dog comes to the hide he barks and guards and he remains that way until the handler comes forewards and calls the dog to heel at the judges signal
 There is no search  and Grip leastways not in Belgium but of course you Guys may do it over in the USA you have to be that little bit different from everyone else in a lot of things certainly in this sport from what i am reading.  your ideas of what is right and wrong has much to be desired, I see what i see and i have seen enough dogs to be able to make my mind up, Only time will tell with this Dog but for sure the handler is a novice as is the helper if not he is a stupid man
What i said in my last post was true if i could afford to bring you over to Belgium for a month Mr Behun to train my Dogs and teach me and the Belgian Schutzund Guys how to do it  the right way i certainly would do so, and i would for that month place two dogs entirely at your disposal to train one a two and half year old and a nearly 5 month old Pup, then we would see and you had better be good  for some of the Guys you will meet go regular to the USA to help  train some of your countrymen and do trials and seminars in various parts of the country and word will get around
To me it is a challenge and i love a challenge so i will save and who knows come the spring i may be calling you to pack your bags and come and show me how it is done along with the Guys at the Clubs, plus others will come over to watch they will also love to watch an expert working with dogs, if you do not come i am sure one of the following will take up the offer Trace755, Get a Real Dog, Jennie  or 4 pack anyone one of these Schutzund Experts will do for me, they will be welcomed and treated well but be expected to produce the goods, and at the end of the month i will expect to see a bigger improvement in my two dogs than i would make
Steve

Ahhh, you forgot in your expert opinion that in the SchHI schutzdienst, the handler may call the dog back or pick the dog up by free healing, that is how much I know.  I never said there was a grip in the blind for any level of the sport.  The grip is commonly given as a reward for the correct searching and barking behavior.  There is also never a time in the testing or trialing of the dog that it is scored by the way it carries the sleeve, yet almost everyone does it.  Point being, again, the dog's foundation has not yet been developed so in theory it is not the dog's fault that this accident occurred.  I am not trying to argue training theory or philosophy, just discuss what we saw in the video.  You said that the dog has a problem with it's nerves because it bit the helper on his bare arm after being threatened.  I simply stated that I disagree and the problem was training related.  You are entitled to your opinion as am I, doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong or vice-versa.  My contention with the whole discussion comes from the notion expressed by you and Mackenzie that this dog has no place in the sport.  I believe that through more thoughtful, focused training that this dog can absolutely do "the sport", after all, isn't that what makes a trainer good?  Taking numerous dogs of different type and temperament and handlers with different skill sets and temperaments and getting them to perform?  Not everyone can be as gifted as you and I and get the absolute "perfect" dog every time out.

Never in any post i have wrote do i say the Dogs nerves were weak because he bit the bare arm of the Helper
I said the dogs nerves were weak because he could not control himself and instead of barking at the helper and as he is barking he is guarding him at the same time, and once the helper twitches his arm the dog bites the sleeve
BUT the Dog went from the Handler straight to the Helper and the Dog BIT the Sleeve which showed he could not contain his nerves on that occasion, in experienced yes, but not in control of its nerves
Nothing at all about the dog biting the arm of the helper, Now this is where the confusion is within these posts
The Helper had no need to hit the dog with his bare hand
When the Dog went straight in the second time he BIT the Sleeve that was fine except that he did not bark and guard first that is what i am going on about
 Why the Helper did not just slip the Sleeve i do not know, then there would have been no problems at all
The Dog did not do the exercise right We know the first time it was on a line, and so it should have been the second time but they chose not too, that too i have said several times
Why the Helper hit the Dog only he knows a real stupid man and yes the dog went for the hand that was hitting him, I think i would as well That has nothing at all at what i am on about i have repeated myself several times now
It was because the Dog left the Handler and went straight in to the sleeve he could not contain himself so it is a question of nerves at that time plus a lack of experince but also nerves, and that i will not budge from
I never did not say it cannot be put right, i was shot down by you experts interpreting my posts wrongly, I stick to what i have said regarding the dog actions in going straight for the sleeve but overall it is the fault of the Handler for not putting the line on the dog then it could have been checked before it even reached the sleeve to stop it biting, i have said that several  times as well 
But needless to say you Guys are the experts and know it all, i know nothing, and that means the ones who help me over the years know nothing about Dogs or the sport of Sch as well,
So i will be calling on one of you Guys at a near later date to come over to show us how it is done the correct way at my expense, and i hope the one of you who comes over can back it up with actions and show us novices over here how it is done, The Guys will look forewards to it
Steve

Still, if the dog is young/inexperienced and not fully trained, is it necessarily a case of bad nerves if a dog get´s a bit to excited when already in a excited state of mind and bites the sleeve, even if its supposed to not do that, as everobody knows when it´s time for a real competition when it´s finsihed in training.

Handler / Helper error.....green dog.  Too many errors to talk about.  Not using barrier fence to train H/B.   Donno about the dogs nerves, just looks like a Mal that doesnt know the H/B with horrible Helper/Handler sending dog to blind off leash...LOL.  idiots.

Sure Steve, I'll come over and help you out.  Maybe I can show you the difference between a dog exhibiting bad nerves and a dog exhibiting bad behavior.  Bad behavior as a result of bad training.  The "sport" of Schutzhund is a series of exercises developed by "man" to test what we believe to be desirable traits for a working dog.  The dog doesn't know or care about our rules.  "WE" teach and enforce the rules, therefore if/when the dog makes a mistake, it's our mistake, not the dogs, for improper instruction or enforcement.  You should not blame the dog for behaviors that you did not promote/reward or correct.  Example:  If I were tracking a beginning dog, off lead, and he/she gets off of the track or starts to work too fast and extends my 10 meter distance to 30 meters, the dog has bad nerves.  Not so, simply a case of beginning dog being asked to perform too much.  I might say that a dog with a low threshold for excitement should not be worked "hot", as is the case with many Malinois but it doesn't mean that they are not suitable for the work.  The technique he was trying was not good for this dog, and in my opinion, not good for this breed in general.  Malinois are too reactive and quick to think, try that technique once and it won't happen again.  Maybe the dog had seen that move before and this time seemed more than prepared to defend himself. 

 

I'll take the all expense paid vacation to Belgium if you are willing to pay for it,,,absolutely.  We can all learn something from each other, learning never stops.  However, if it's training like I saw in the video, I'd have to decline, I'm better off staying right here in the backwoods of northern Illinois with my rusty collar and long line.  Anyone see my Willie Koehler book?  Which end of this damn leash goes on the dog????

Your telling me that we enforce the rules, That it is us who is wrong not the Dog, Look up other posts i am always quoting that fact,  yet you are now telling me, I doubt very much if you can teach me anything by the way you post
but if i can save enough to get you over then i will,in fact i will make sure that i do. No expenses, just Hotel and Flight and Food thats it  but i will expect to see results as will others over here, I will even get you a really green dog with a bit of age on it who has done nothing  to show us how to train the basices, You should be able to do something with that
You in your way by saying i know nothing have said you the expert so you can teach all the Belgian Guys as well as me how it is done and you will have probably members of the Belgian team to show them the right way to do it, I am sure they will grateful to you for the help you will be giving them and me
Remember Belgium has won the WUSV more times than any other country in the world in the last 15 years or so, So Yes, i will have the Guys there for you to show them how to train a Schutzund Dog In Obed, Tracking and Protection and you can even put on the sleeve to show some of the best helpers in Europe how to do the job correctly then you can put us all right and improve our standard of Handling Dogs for the sport of Schutzund

And as for your RUSTY COLLAR a good tradesman looks after his tools remember that
Steve

On the forum i put on a post about the WUSV this week in Germany i think it is on the second page now
Now all you expert Schutzund Trainers over there in the USA or wherever you live  who have told me i do not know what i am talking about and i am refering only to Mr Berun, Get a Real Dog, Jennie, 4 Pack and Tracie Not one of you showed any interest in the Thread at all there was not one single post from any of you Guys in reponse to your own teams entrants, and that you were hoping they would do well, That alone shows me and probably others how interested you really are in the Sport Of Schutzund
Now tell the truth How many times a week do any of you Guys who i have named on this thread Train with Schutzund Clubs and how many Schutzund Trials do you go to during a year, that way i may be able to get a bit of info on what to expect from you guys on future posts

The dog in question is a Malinois and must be worked differently than a German Shepherd.  And, my tools are just fine thank you.  Let me know when you have my ticket ready.  Should I bring my own dog, or do you have loaners?