Show line/Working line - Page 1

 I have a question for the “Show Line” folks, and I am sincere when I ask this.
 
In many of my previous posts I have stated that a German shepherd is a German shepherd, and should be able to perform any of the tasks/work which the breed is known for.
 
I recently watched a documentary of the Crufts Dog Show, and quite frankly I was appalled at the GSD’s which were awarded Blue ribbons. These dogs could not walk properly.
 
My limited understanding of the conformation dog shows purpose, is to exhibit the Best examples of the Breed (any breed).
 
Why then, would anyone not want to show a “Working Line” GSD provided that it meets the breed standard – height, weight, color, teeth etc.?
 
And why, show line and working line? Are they not just supposed to be a German shepherd dog?
 



Kim

Why then, would anyone not want to show a “Working Line” GSD provided that it meets the breed standard – height, weight, color, teeth etc.?

Because they'll lose.  Their dogs are correct, but not what the judges are used to.  The dogs stick out like a sore thumb, and not in a good way.

I DO think that in AKC at least, some working lines could do well in all breed shows under certain judges (where you get more color variety than just black and red saddled and every now and then a random saddled sable).  The thing is, though, that those working line exhibitors NEED TO LEARN how to exhibit a dog!  It is just bad form to take in a dog that is not decently trained.

Also, I HATE that stupid PDE clip.  I KNOW this breed has issues, there is no denying that.  But the dogs that were shown in that video were being exhibited like shit.  They looked TERRIBLE.  It's not hard to make a good dog look like crap.

Dogs in that video were pacing, they were strung up, the handling was just abysmal.

I don't have a problem with overdone dogs being shown and somebody saying "This is an issue", but they need to choose dogs that are at least being exhibited properly.  What was in that clip was rubbish >.<

By the way, while I do not like "play in the hocks", it doesn't automatically make a dog unable/unfit to work (which seems to be what people panic about, which is silly).  Yeah, there are some that are bad, but those dogs really weren't terrible...and they were straining on their leads.  The hock absorbs shock, and you're going to see a little play in the hocks on even a strongly ligamented properly angulated dog if they're straining and going to and fro.

Xeph- thank you for your reply. You said - Because they'll lose.  Their dogs are correct, but not what the judges are used to.  The dogs stick out like a sore thumb, and not in a good way.

Can you explain what you mean when you say " their correct, but not what the judges are used to.The dogs stick out like a sore thumb, and not in a good way".


Does that mean that our ZVV1 who beat out the top winning bitch in Canada last year was judged by someone who did not know what he/she was looking at?

I'm not being f ffffacetious, I'm asking sincere and serious questions.


Kim

Kim, I assume Xeph was referring to AKC shows; if not I apologize to her.

I don't know if you've ever shown here in the US, but, right or wrong, the GSD AKC ring is all about 2 things -conforming to the type of the day and having enough angulation to suggest the dog would have a big side gait. Many times AKC judges need to speculate aboout reach and drive because the rings are not nearly large enough for a GSD to move at full stride.  When the ring is large enough, that dog had better be able to cover a lot of ground. To most judges, coming and going is immaterial.

If you have a working line dog that looks like a ASL and moves like one, then that dog most definitely could be competitve here. If not, then it's not going to happen. and at $25 a pop you would be throwing good money afer bad. I don't know for sure, but judging by the photos I've seen, the GSD's exhibited at the CKC shows are not as overdone or as fancy as the dogs down here, so I can see that a nice sound working line dog like yours must be could go on to have some impressive wins. 

As far as I know, there has only been one WL GSD to earn an AKC championship and that was a while back when the style of dog wanted wasn't quite so fancy or the side gait not quite as exagerated and the SL's and WL's lines had a more similar phenotype than today.I never saw the dog, only photos, so I would defer to anyone has seen him as to whether or not he would be competitive today. That was Neuman's Jim. I think I spelled that right, he is pictured here in the database.


 

The SV has a slightly different preference than the AKC

Meaning a dog who does very well in the AKC may not make it very well in the SV show rings. 

Also keep in mind Judges place dogs according to structure, and then their preference. Each judge prefers different things in a dog. 
Xeph could explain what judges in AKC prefer more and why that wouldn't cater to a working line. I am not familiar with AKC shows. 

Maybe if someone offers up a photo of their working line we can compare the structure to that of an american line GSD and srictly for learning purposes compare the differences between the two and what would hinder a working line in a show ring. 

The AKC guidelines for judges suggest they first select the dogs they think have the best overall type and then make cuts based on movement. I tend to agree with that. A GSD has to first look like a GSD.

The SV judges are to first evaluate performance and then conformation and movement.

Here's a good discussion on why a dog that is different will usually lose: http://www.shawlein.com/2011/10/12/judging-type-2/

Thank you all for your replies, I also printed out that article.



Kim

Great article BlackthornGSD, thank you for posting that.

An excerpt:

American judges claim the hyper-angulated  hindquarter shows stronger rear propulsion. It doesn’t – extreme American dogs virtually never achieve the AD (endurance test) or schutzhund titles that require jumping – but that’s what they believe and it is a fiction which has persisted for over thirty years. German judges claim the roach back is an indication of strength. It isn’t – slow motion video shows how a malformed back distorts in motion – but that’s what they believe and it is a fiction which has also persisted for over thirty years.

Oh there's no doubt, AKC shows are little more than beauty contests and the judges judge accordingly. Every now and then we do see an AKC judge who is a true student of the breed and dogs in general. Dr. Battaglia always come to mind. He has a method whereby he evaluates gait somehow calculating the number and sequence of footfalls. I seriously doubt that he is of the mind that superangulation makes for a more correct dog.