Is it really true - Page 1

Is it really true that the 03 seiger was cow hocked. Isnt cow hocked legs a fault. Im asking cos my sis has a VA pitt Von tronje grandson here and the kennel club here declared that he wasnt breed worthy cos he is a bnit cow hocked. could someone plz shed some lite on this. Fida

Fida, Quite a few of past top studs were slightly cow-hocked - even Canto moved slightly so,I believe. Nick Wienerau and sire Kuno Weidtweg - forerunners to Palme and Uran - certainly were. It must simply throw back on occasion. Promoting such an animal to Sieger status obviously relates to existence of desirable other qualities and those reflected by offspring. Cheers.

thanx oldog... but my question is that is this a disqualifying fault when it comes to breeding...like is it transmitted genetically. Fida

Some dogs make in free standing such a position, but in moving they are straight. Very important to check in movement. Have see other VA have same when stand, but move straight! Vet say dogs what are swimming maybe straighten out. Other doctor study and say he think maybe some dogs choose or learn this posture from run in short space back and forth or in narrow kennel runs. Dogs make turn out the back feet and legs. Works easier for make so many turnings. Such a position make easier on feet and hips for so many times turn so sharp. This position same what is first choice for reduce muscle stress and rotation on hip joint what is bearing weight for many sport and dancers. Maybe dog got good idea to protect self? Save feet pads so not worn off from friction too.

Fida. To answer your questions: No, it is not a disqualifying fault when it comes to breeding. Yes, it can be genetically transmitted.

Hi Fida, I have heard very similar things as what Lars is relating. Asked same questions of our vets after seeing same at Sieger show and in some VA dogs both on video and in person, up close. Was surprised to hear almost the same answers from our vets. The comment re human sports and dancers is easy to evaluate. Just try a quick turn yourself starting from different foot positions. If the dog lifts his front as he turns, then his rear legs bear all the weight. So, a human subject can get some of the sense of what the dog is feeling as he bounces about making sharp turns at the end of a kennel run, particularly a narrow one. Also, some dogs will always throw their front higher off the ground to turn, no matter what circumstance they are in. I think it is a well taken point that it may be a either a self protective posture, or one that gives a feeling of better balance, agility and strength, discovered and learned while in a kennel situation. Unfortunately, it seems to be resulting in a tendency to stand cow hocked when not in motion, as the inner and outer thigh muscles develop unequal strengths. Check out the legs of people who do certain sports, (Tennis, rugby, football especially some positions, hockey,) or like dancers, that require a lot of repeated and reciprocal lateral motion and quick changes of direction and turns. Interesting concept! Thanks for bringing it forward. Puts a new spin on an old topic!

Hello again Fida, In my opinion it's largely genetic, and my vet has invariably similarly assured me so. I have seen eight-week old pups that were chronically cow-hocked and other contributing factors as mentioned above never came into being. Breeding-wise, as for most faults, it is a question of degree and judgement - it's really as simple as all that!

Hi Fida, Cow hocks won't disqualify, but they can indicate an overall loose ligament structure which causes dogs to break down early. It is not desireable. Diane

Both my vet and judges I have asked say that movement is required to determine if dog is truely cowhocked. Yes true cowhock status is passed on genetically. Not desireable feature. Debate if it contributes to hip dysplasia is ongoing. May also protect from it if dog is otherwise prone to develop HD. Judge and vet all said this is one of main reasons dogs are viewed coming and going, prefer with as little handler interference as possible. True cow hock can be minimized in ring by skilled handler, keeps lots of tension in leash so dog must pull at all times, even standing still. However, skilled judge should pick it up. Have heard of one judge who was fooled till ribbons to be handed out and while walking down line taking numbers, saw a top dog in true relaxed posture - cowhocked like crazy... immediately rechecked dog with movement in free position, and moved out of ribbons! To my surprise, I have also seen German judges ask handlers to swap dogs for a short period,or to fulfill a specific request, on several occasions... or even caution handlers to do as requested re gait speed or leash tension... or be dismissed. VERY interesting to watch the change in the dogs! Many are beginning to like creative and bold judging like this! Quality of handler in the ring should be weighted in assesment of the dog... and creative investigation of dog's real status or ability by judge is a breath of fresh air. For the best interest of the breed, Big money for a handler with any dog should not trump less or no money spent for handler with a better dog. It is the dogs who will pass on the genetics, not the humans!

Hi Fida, As Wolf indicates, I suppose nothing in this business is as simple as it seems! Although I do think that distinction between 'acquired' and 'inherent' cow-hocked-ness is rather a fine one. Connection made to HD is very interesting and worth discussing further I think. Difference noted between mobile and standing state is also worth mentioning. I noted Canto above as showing slight degree of being cow-hocked in movement, yet this was apparently not noticeable when standing still. I believe the reverse can be equally true. Cheers.