Pulling instead of Pushing Bite - Page 1

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by K9L1 on 18 June 2019 - 19:06

I have read on quite a few working forums where a pushing in calm bite is indicative of a desire to fight and be close up to the decoy. The dog in this vid seems to be pulling ( but powerfully so ) on the bite , yet he does not seem to be afraid of the decoy.Can anyone elaborate further on this? The dog in the video is only 1 year old.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s9tA_RM7YI


by K9L1 on 18 June 2019 - 20:06

The dog is dragging the decoy down the path; wether he pulls or pushes in real life such a bite will cause serious injury.

by ValK on 18 June 2019 - 21:06

looks like fine dog but what a difference... pulling, pushing.
either case that dog in video obviously haven't been taught fight human. stuck at stage "tug of war".

by duke1965 on 19 June 2019 - 05:06

the difference between pulling and pushing is determined by level of prey/posession and training, has nothing to do with courage or willingness to fight or any other superpowers


by apple on 19 June 2019 - 10:06

It is more about training and imprinting a mindset of forward aggression in the dog than an indication of a dog's innate willingness to fight or "superpowers." Prey drive and possessiveness can be factors, and usually dogs with higher prey and possessiveness can be taught a pushing bite easier, but a dog doesn't have to have crazy possessiveness or prey to easily be taught a pushing bite by simply never reinforcing pulling and always reinforcing pushing. I don't think the people in the video have a clue.

by Centurian on 19 June 2019 - 16:06

Pushing , pulling

Interesting topic .... So ..... what is the purpose for most of the dogs to bite ? THAT to me is the million dollar question . And to me , the answer to that question dictates how , when , where and why to bite and the value of the biting manner .

Having said that to me the aspects of the dog biting is like martial arts. Many peoole think that if you know martial arts then you have a notion of how to fight. And current day that is what many martial arts teach , as a sport that is : i.e. how to fight . The truth of the matter fighting and combat are not the same , not in the least . If you are in an encounter and you keep yourself away form your opponent , or if you drag the interaction out [ like the movies] while fighting your opponent , you will die. You will get killed. So what does this have to do with dogs ? Simple . in a real life stiuation if you do not have a dog or you are not able to train a dog to take the combat right into the opponent's body space then that dog stands a chance of losing or getting killed . And most likely if someone has a knife or a gun your dog will get killed. When the dog encounters in the opponents body space the dog takes from the away from opponent balance and many positions and the ability to freely move. When the dog is outside body space the opponent has more movement , can regain balance , shed clothing , have space and time to do something to the dog [ i.e grab an object ]. Point blank , the dog cannot control the man as well .... And on that note : what is then , the purpose of the bite ?

Of course if the dog is doing dport .. then maybe nobody care as long as the dog bites hard and full .... and for some I imagine there is nothing wrong with that either.. But IMOp , don't equate that to actual combat , it is a form of fighting. No more or less.

by apple on 19 June 2019 - 18:06

I am doing sport (PSA) with my GSD and our small club's philosophy is that a pushing bite teaches the dog how to fight and to turn off pressure from the decoy. The vast majority of dogs competing in PSA are Mals, who are genetically prone to higher prey drive and possessiveness, so a pushing bite is easier to teach. When we started with my dog, he wanted to pull, but was never given a chance or any satisfaction for pulling because the decoy locked up his arms preventing pulling. Now my dog has learned to push on the bicep and the back of the leg, just above the knee.

by Centurian on 19 June 2019 - 20:06

Apple , I think that what you teach your dog is better IMOp .

So from your story I will write for people reading the thread : Dogs do have preferences how they bite and preferences onto the body parts to bite . Also , dogs will do that which brings them success to achieve their goal . What Apple wrote is very very important especially in puppy tug work or bite development. If you play tug with your puppy and that material gives / is flexible to the point the pup is able to take it towards himself and move backwards , then this will become a habit and as it does the pup learns extraordinarily fast to pull back when upon once he bites. I already described what I do with a flirt pole with my pups... and , now you get a better idea why . My message : Apple is well versed , as well as his decoy , but to those that are not , the best way to deal with the dog that pulls on the bite is not to let the pup favor that , to create the preference for that , to begin with if that is not what you want .

Apple , 20 + years ago doing French Ring .. we saw a good number of Mals with the bite , gripping only with the front teeth , and many pulled away from the decoy's leg . Fortunately , we rubbed elbows with those quite good in the sport , so never mind the dog pushing into the decoy and biting , before that happend at times the dogs actually did entry with also the intention to body slam the decoy as they bit . Boy o' boy , did some of those dogs hit hard and take the decoy right off his feet . What I bite that also ensued. But for those not familair with the sport , the dog starts out with the full set of points and the decoy steals the points away ... a take down - the dog keeps all total points for the exercise automatically . Talk about a dog going forward , let alone pushing... These dogs were after the bite and the take down . So they had a philosophy of ' having the dog drive into ' the person. . However, others in the sport got a bit carried away with this idea : [ I frowned on ths heavily ] they trained and sent the dog to bite on the upper chest mid center right under the neck/chin area. Until one day a decoy got bite right in the face...

A dog pushing right into a bite , with a full bite... believe me when I tell you , those dogs can cause a lot of damage , it hurts !. One time I had a GS form Fado Karthago , doing Belgium Ring with a Belgium decoy , I sent him flying over a big blue horse racing barrel . In mid airhe hit and bit hard , crushing and driving right through the decoy . In his bite suit the decoy said " wow , that hurt ", as he shook his arm " where did you get this dog " ? IMOp , teach your dog to bite hard and drive forward , try not to teach the dog to pull back and pull back continuously while biting . Take a lesson from Apple and don't give your dog the chance. In the end I think you will be happier with your dog.


emoryg

by emoryg on 20 June 2019 - 01:06

K9L1, thank you for sharing the video.  There are plenty of good things to like about the young dog.  Plus, it is nice to see they are working off the field and with something other than a sleeve. 

And yes, if that dog was to bite unprotected areas of the body as he does the suit, injuries could be significant.  

by Juno on 20 June 2019 - 10:06

I will use my dog and I as guinea pigs again. Even though the purpose of this short video was more to reach the “aus” it does demonstrate to some extent what both Apple and Centurian is saying about pushing bites and the natural tendency of a dog to bite where it feels comfortable. This video is about 8 months old when we were training for PSA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqR3kKuO7AE

I have a thick skin so don’t worry about being brutally honest

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