Reading a dog: What does this mean? - Page 1

I have seen claims on this board made by persons that 95% of the rank and file trainers cannot read a dog correctly. There is a dog at our club who does not like to walk over the storm drain sheet because many the holes in the sheet are slightly larger than the the circumference of the dog's foot; and this dog will crouch at the edge of the sheet when he has to walk over it. The strange thing is that when encouraged by his handler the dog walks over the sheet but kind of crouchily. While crossing the sheet the dog looks at the handler and there is a distinct desire to please the handler on the dog's face. My question is can the pack drive of the dog be so strong that it can over ride something the dog has some apprehension in doing?

Mike Suttle once told me in a phone conversation about a year ago that many of the Mals he breed are unable to detect fear ( much less act on it ) because their prey drive is so high, it completely over rides the sense of fear. So is it that a very high pack drive can over ride this particular dog's inhibition? The holes on the sheet are large like the ones in the pic  below

Yes, dogs will do something out of trust and desire to please that they would not otherwise do. Happens a lot.

Christine

Thank you Christine.
So is this an expression of strong pack drive such that it over rides an inhibition? ( somewhat like Mike Suttle says that extremely high prey drive blocks the dog from detecting fear? )

Well, you're talking about 2 different things..

 

-Trainer/helper reading dogs..  or people reading dogs, for that matter..

-And the genetic makeup of a dog's temperament/nerve, basically the way the dog IS...was BORN to be...

 

We (people) select and breed animals for traits desired, whatever that may be.

We (people) also shape and mold animals into behaviours desired, based on the genetics of the animal...

 

"reading" the animal is sort of a talent, based on experience/success of the person doing it...  some people are simply better at seeing /observing/interacting with animals than others..

 

Good animal observers/trainers recognize how to optimize the animal for success, and also realize the limitations of the animal..  It is a skill that comes best from experience/hands on/and LOTS of real time, like as an apprentice...  practising what you learn..  its definitely a skill.
I absolutely think some people are born into naturally being better with the skill.

 

The walking on the grate thing is part of what the animal IS...  it doesnt like doing it.. and you might optimize its ability to walk on it.. but be realistic that the animal would be a poor choice for, say, a guide/service dog, or a subway bomb detector, but maybe great at something where grates are considered dangerous.. 

 

I would bet if the dog's owner takes off the lead, and asks the dog to come and walk over the grate off-lead, it makes every effort to still avoid it, even though it walked over it on lead "for him".. 

 

 

I will take the dog that walks around the grate.

Den why would the dog walk over the grate on lead but not off?

Cos the dog is not stupid.

See, VK knows what he needs in a dog!! 

 

Why does the dog walk around the grate??

Because he doesn't like it.. Its creepy.. it could be dangerous.. dog isn't too sure about the grate..  it's fairly normal in nature to be aware of a potentially dangerous surface that might kill you or cause serious injury to an important body part..
Its an expression of the nerve of the dog.. how the dog is.. what the dog is ...

 

If this was a dog in a guide dog program, the inability to get over the creepiness of the grate would be a deal-breaker..  you could not have it becoming so worried and fixated on avoiding the grate that it allows danger to happen to its blind charge...

 

I prefer a dog that is aware of its surroundings, but can almost "think" if you will....  resilient enogh to comprehend that the grate isn't dangerous, with minimal exposure, but clever enough to rely on its inherent better senses when it KNOWS that something is WRONG about, say, a CERTAIN  grate.. but not ALL grates..

Willful disobedience..  For me, its how the animal recovers from the initial experience and how it deals with it in the future.

 

 

 

 

We can make general statements about dog behavior but this is in no way 100% predictive of all that one dog will ultimately do. There will always be plenty of variation among individual dogs.

I think, then, it would not be unreasonable to assume that a particular dog could possibly tolerate a lot of anxiety in order to maintain a connection with its pack and the ultimate safety and security such affiliation brings.

But completely ignoring fear is much like not feeling pain. It may sound like a good thing but the reality is much different. All organisms need a mechnism to avoid injury and death. Survival relies on some avoidance and a functional reaction to real danger. Total fearlessness - if such a thing can even exist - serves no evolutionary purpose.

If dogs in general have evolved in such ways as to optimize their own survival, could an individual dog completely suppress a reasonable fear reaction to obey a handler instead? Would it not need a high level of submission to collective will? If a dog ignores its survival instincts involving avoidance of danger, it will not last very long. So would it make more sense that such a dog would be completely fearless or extremely compliant?

My dogs are in environments that will kill them any given second, blind fearlessness = instant death and it is all out of handler control.

they will give you the finger if you make a dumb call.