Constant Unsureness in a Dog: What causes this? - Page 1

On Sunday last I was at the training field and had a chance to see that beautiful Mali preparing for his PSA 1. The dog was very fast in the blind search and bite work, but one thing I noticed is that before the dog is actually commanded by the handler, the dog is kind of crouchy , with ears down, and constantly looking up at the handler. To me it looked as though the dog was constantly expecting that a harsh correction could come at any random time. It was kind of sad to see such a fine looking dog being so crouchy.
Any opinions on why this dog would constantly be in this state? The dog was also wearing an e collar.

The dog does not trust his handler ... as to why the lack of trust your explanation is the most logical. E collars and prong collars can destroy trust if improperly used ( and most people use them improperly ).  Despite what most experts claim there is such a thing as too much drive ( ie crazy ).  The dog may have had an E collar frontal labotomy to stop crazy drives from making him uncontrollable.  He had gone off too many times while waiting for the release command for some routine so the handler has conditioned him to expect a shock and the release removes the potential punishment and he is in his happy place.  Just before he is released he is in an extremely unhappy place expecting a shock if he does anything wrong ( and the dog seldom sees the difference in wrong or right in artificial dog sport games ).

Sounds to me like the E-collar is not right correction for this particular dog; how long had he been in the e-collar? Otherwise, he was born that way... Genetics... NAn

Don't know how long he has been in e collar , but the dog is very fast to the blind , good grips, and it was the only dog I saw keeping the sleeve in its mouth ( good possession ) until it was taken away from him by the handler. The only problem is that the sight of the dog before the send off is sad. The dog is very crouchy, lowered ears, tail down and he keeps looking up to and away from the handler.
Genetics? Nan can you explain a little more?

Sounds like a lot of conflict issues with handler

More likely genetics from the handler.

The dog was likely brought into bite work before his obedience was rock solid. Then once in bite work he was bolting and going off on his own because he had a ton of drive that was not under the handler's control. So the E collar is used to stop the bolting and disobedience leading up to the release for the bite work. Now the dog knows that one of two things will happen when preparing for bite work ... a) he will get the crap shocked out of him which will hurt or b) he will get to do the bite work which he enjoys. So when he is on the field waiting for the routine to begin he is preparing to get the crap shocked out of him as has happened numerous times in the past. The dog is distressed and thinking this is gonna hurt and I hate it so he looks very worried and unhappy. Then if he gets the release command and starts to make his bite work with no shock the dog realizes "no shock" and is in his happy place as all the dread and worry is released. Remove the E collar and the dog may not act as worried.

Sounds like the owner might be inconsistent, meaning the dog does not really understand the parameters for a shock. The dog might be "guessing" what the owner wants. Perhaps the handler should take a step back and work on reworking the "rules" of the sport with the dog, and rewarding the good consistently in order to reinforce good behavior. 

The problem with removing the collar is that the dog may become collar smart.

Always difficult to give an answer : But the options in simplicity stem from 1. the genetic make up of the dog 2. the handler and / or the training 3. combination of both dog and handler

For instances ... the dog's genetics: i have seen this quite often as a matter of fact. I have seen people train with these so called ' over the top 'drive dogs . but what i see are dogs that are to to to high in the wrong kind of aggression [ another thread topic] . I have seen them in protection sports often . These people actually think they are great dogs at that too. I tell you how aggressive , I have seen them with not one but two or three e collars , I have seen them on bite suite and during the bite a chair hitting them on the head- they don't flinch never mind come off the bite !! I wrote on another thread , ' a dog that can't learn to control itself is not a good dog " and let alone that ... on top of that... ,handlers can't control many such dogs too !! Bad genetics , just bad bad genetics !!

The handlers : i still see the old notion of firing up the dog !! they want a ballistic dog and during and past the foundation stage they don't teach the dog to channel itself or control itself until the dog is way way way out of hand. just foolish training !! Ignorant people thinking a dog has to be ballistic in order to do good work !!

The combination of the two .. i leave to your imagination.

What the original poster wrote , tells us a lot about what has happened to this dog . The dog is concerned about the owner, for we teach to never take the eye off the helper in not all, but many protection sports , the dog is uncomfortable near the handler as the ears are back the dog and in a lot of conflict . This dog was harshly handled , if not to the point perhaps * abused .

What i can speculate** about is that , and I could be wrong , i am just speculating** as I prefer to see dog and handler, so again I speculate : they probably tried if they were half decent trainers ,the notion of : not giving the dog a bite if the dog didn't hold it's position or perform correctly. The result was that tactic didn't work out . That left them with one option : to be physical . Even at that, they had a hard time with control , and when the dog had freedom , it went for the bite !! Therefore , the introduction to the E collar because the dog could not control itself , nor could they, with and without the use of a leash . This may give the poster insight to why the dog acted the way it did , how it was treated , and why you see that stereotypic behavior , very characteristic for that scenario. I've seen this 1000 times and mostly for the same reason[s].

I spoke with the trainer today. He said the dog is IPO 2 and is preparing for his IPO3. He says that this dog is extremely civil and is even aggressive towards the handler if he does not get is way.( and this civil edge is just below his skin ). In fact he told me that the dog always wore 2 ( not 1 ) e collars , and this was the only way that they are able to have more precise control over him. His opinion is that dog would have been better suited for police work where less obedience control is required. Both the dog's parents are out of knpv lines.